Fixing combo champs in one easy step

[sillbrink]

Ive have been thinking how to make combo champions stronger to be somewhat comparable to that of other classes and it occured to me that one simple change would give us a power boost we need.

All you would have to do is make it so that Glacial Fist 5 requires no spheres. I know some combo champs keep this skill low (lvl 2 is req for chain crush), but for those who really want to go all out combo, the extra 3 skills points would be a small price to pay for the 0 sphere cost.

Right now, the max combo you can do is:
Tri -> Quad ->
Thrust (+1sphere) ->
Glacial (+1sphere) ->
CCC (+2sphere) ->
Glacial (+1sphere)
For a total of 5 sphere cost

If glacial fist had 0 sphere cost you could do this combo
Tri -> Quad ->
Thrust (+1sphere) ->
Glacial ->
CCC (+2sphere) ->
Glacial ->
CCC (+2sphere) ->
Glacial
For a total of 5 sphere cost

This greatly extends your combo and also gives a decent chance for glacial to actually lock your opponent. Since CCC and glacial do have an aftercast, the extended damage would still be pottable when used in pvp / woe.

Just wondering others opinions if this would be too overpowered or what.

[Ojimaru]

Sorry, where did you get that bit of info that says Glacial Fist 5 requires no Spheres?

[Nezach]

just double the combo damage and remove these retarded delays between them...hell just remove the delay. Or let them consume 1 sp like the TK kicks. Or give us maximum of 10 spheres if you got chain crush on lvl 10.

i don't think the 0- sphere requirement will help us as much as you think.
full combo with double glacier fist ---> 3 spheres then...still 1 sphere needed to do a second combo chain without recasting right ?

@ Ojimaru

read OP's post again XD

[Steax]

I think the best idea would be to put the SP use at the very end of the combo. So if you go through the whole combo, and finish it off with a Guillotine, you get the same amount of damage from the Guillotine, plus the combo damage.

So when you do a trifecta, and chain it with a quad, your SP for those skills are consumed after you do your quad (the total SP). This would actually make people combo into a Guillotine instead of just casting it.

Then they should, say, double the damages. Fine, double the SP too, but do the SP-at-the-end thing. :D

[Jayed]

Make quad blows manually-cast-able ;p

With a special delay that makes it so quad can't be re-casted for 5 seconds or something, so that people don't just spam quad blows to lvl or fight.

[KillaSpirit]

Dont make combo champs!

[Nezach]

pfff...I'd rather make a second combo champ before even touching brain-dead spirit/ asura builds.

for 3rd class i could even life with thief class abilities....double attack, improve dodge and dual wield.

Ontopic: 50% chance that you cast a sphere when using any combo + no sphere use when in fury mode lol.

[crash]

I think the main thing is the SP issue - combo champs and melee classes for that matter don't tend to get a lot of INT, but since combos require so much SP, it makes you stop and have to absorb (with the mid-low dex of a combo champ) to get the SP back. It's all just very inefficient - not to mention the fact that every combo champ I've known uses OI to level anyway since there's no efficient way to kill monsters with combos.

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed with combos. I really don't think we have to worry about them becoming OP either.

[Jayed]

not to mention the fact that every combo champ I've known uses OI to level anyway since there's no efficient way to kill monsters with combos.
This is because we need monsters that non-def-piercing attacks deal good damage to-- as well as high enough HP/exp ratio to compensate for the "rapid kill mode" that many classes require (which occulting fits into) to negate travel time hangups. Cause combos are slow... why spend 5-10 seconds comboing to Chain Crush when you can kill the monster 1 sec with occult and move on? The only answer would be something like Anubis that has high HP but also high EXP, so that spending a lot of time on one monster is worthwhile.

Problem? Providing a monster like that would be abused by every other class, such as hunters etc. Only solution I could think of would be to make a dungeon with monster like this-- but the entrance requires you to be an acolyte-type.

[KillaSpirit]

pfff...I'd rather make a second combo champ before even touching brain-dead spirit/ asura builds.

for 3rd class i could even life with thief class abilities....double attack, improve dodge and dual wield.

Ontopic: 50% chance that you cast a sphere when using any combo + no sphere use when in fury mode lol.

Its just the fact that spirit champs are infinitly more efficient than combo champs. In killing almost anything.

[Commad]

In my experience, it's not the sp cost, or the time it takes to combo, it's based on the fact that after Comodo, Vit(def)>Agi(flee) in every single situation imaginable.

PvM: Most higher level dungeons have monsters with high HP, high hit, and high def. so in order to kill them and be cost/time effective, you need a def piercing (asura) or increased dmg based on def (Occult) type of attack. This is the same reasoning behind why Bios go AD and a lot of SinXes go SD.

PvP/WoE: Same rules apply as PvM, and even more so in WoE. Combo champs also can't spam CCC like LKs with BB, or HSCR, or SB etc. despite it having a respectable 1400% damage (having it split into 5 separate attacks is also a problem).

The solution: Rework the combo system, either making certain parts AoE, or induce USEFUL status effects like stun, or throwing the system out entirely. My suggestion? Make one of the upcoming Shura skills high dmg output that can be spammed, but only after initiating a combo.

Example: Triple->Quad->Thrust->Glacier->CCC->New Attack->New Attack->New Attack... etc.
Or just make RPS better by making it based on aspd and maybe def ignoring.

[Nezach]

Its just the fact that spirit champs are infinitly more efficient than combo champs. In killing almost anything.


...played spirit monk to 95 and it's no fun at all imo. PLUS i don't like woe or pvp.

maybe 3rd class will overthrow every build so far...imagine a world where spirit/ Asura shura are titled "useless" or "exotic". Look at the new weaps for monk/champ which are made for combos (self endowing, combo improving or aspd influenced chance to get instant asura). I'm pretty sure combo builds will easily be on the same level as other builds as soon as 3rd class hits kRO...or I'll quit lol.

[Jayed]

Perhaps. I mean, trans overturned a lot of conventions about classes. For example, Crusaders sucked at being offensive without a GC build, but now they have GD, RS, and MR. Bards and Dancers were nothing but super Archers prior to trans, but after that they gained a nice DPS skill for leveling in parties. It is not a long shot to say monk's role could change.

[KillaSpirit]

...played spirit monk to 95 and it's no fun at all imo. PLUS i don't like woe or pvp.

maybe 3rd class will overthrow every build so far...imagine a world where spirit/ Asura shura are titled "useless" or "exotic". Look at the new weaps for monk/champ which are made for combos (self endowing, combo improving or aspd influenced chance to get instant asura). I'm pretty sure combo builds will easily be on the same level as other builds as soon as 3rd class hits kRO...or I'll quit lol.

Look at +9 liches bone wand, The weapons are great and stuff but fist class weapons dont do as much to some monters.

[sillbrink]

Ive always thought that making CCC ignore all def would be a nice change as well.

I do agree that combo champs need work. Heck in a lot of places I can do more damage / sp with occult than a CCC. I do like using bridged combos in byland 5 for insta-killing merman / strouf with a CCC (ie Tri-Quad-Thrust to kill one monster then clicking on another monster and using CCC to kill that monster).

[Anh]

Lower Trifect Blow's skill level to 5, and make it do 300% damage at level 5% with a 25% Proc-rate.

Allow the Champ to have 10 spheres, but 5 of them maybe only be used exclusively for combos.

Make Quadruple Blow/Raging Thrust/Icicle Fist/CCC be able to perform in any order, but Guillotine Fist must be last. Also allow combos to penetrate a certain % of target's defense.

Make Occult Impaction, TSS, and Raging Palm Strike also be able to be part of the combo chain.

Let raging thrust have splash damage.

Allow an unlimited combo chain! Quadruple Blow -> Raging Thrust -> Icicle Fist -> Chain Crush Combo -> Raging Thrust -> Quadruple Blow -> Icicle Fist -> Chain Crush Combo, etc as long as the champion has the SP pool/Spheres to keep the chain going.

Same skills cannot be used one after another in a combo chain, and in order to use a skill that was already used in a chain at least 3 other skills must used in the chain in order to re-use a skill (e.g If CCC was already used in combo chain, in order to cast it again, 3 other skills need to casted).

Duel Wield Fists!
Increase the amount of flee that the Flee skill gives!
Let Iron Fist damage bonus apply to combos! Along with Demon Bane!

[Steax]

I really don't understand why Raging Thrust isn't an area skill. The animation pretty much screams something like hammer fall does!

If the rumors that GMs/Gravity are reading irowiki, I pray they visit these threads...

[uome]

both of my monks are combo monks with one turned into a str/int/dex/vit champ for woe/mvp, the other is 95 but i plan to make a full combo champ out of him without occult even.

lowering the sp cost of the combos i think would be by far the easiest things to do without "breaking" the build.

[Master Hung]

Make Occult Impaction, TSS, and Raging Palm Strike also be able to be part of the combo chain.This would be wonderful.

Let raging thrust have splash damage.Soul Linker's Spirit of Monk?

Allow an unlimited combo chain! Quadruple Blow -> Raging Thrust -> Icicle Fist -> Chain Crush Combo -> Raging Thrust -> Quadruple Blow -> Icicle Fist -> Chain Crush Combo, etc as long as the champion has the SP pool/Spheres to keep the chain going.Actually, you can alternate between Glacier e CCC while you have SP and Spheres. I did a test with two friends once. The gave me spheres while I used the combo... I could alternate between CCC and Glacier 3 times (there were also combo, the cast to give spheres didn't help)

Duel Wield Fists!I'd love to have some kind of shield claws... something like the Divine Cross % reduction of damage from monster type, but with dual wielding fists.

I love my Combo Champion. I'm building up a spirit Monk in order to write a good monk/champ guide, but... well... I prefere to lvl my combo champ from 1 to 99 killing porings than play with the spirit monk =p

[Jayed]

You guys are only thinking in PvM perspectives, but then again, you all seem to like combo champ because you're less pvp/woe oriented. The thing is, in PVP, relying on a 25% chance to even start your combo is a pain. It's gonna get you killed, having such unreliable dps. imo, making Qaud Blows manually activatable would solve this problem. You'd basically be able to chain crush on command instead of having to melee someone and wait for trifecta.

[Steax]

Ok, lets put it in simple terms.

Problem: Combos do not work well in Player versus Player combat.

Reason: It is unreliable to wait for a combo to activate.
Obvious Solution: Make it possible to start a combo on command.
Notes:
- It's possible to do that, with Root. But that means more points elsewhere.
- Trifecta will be just another "double attack"; just adding to your damage.
- It would be really cool to start a combo outright, though. It looks so funny when you Fury and you're like "I wanna kill you!!", move up to your opponent and then... start punching him, waiting for an opening. Wut?

--

Reason: Combos do less damage compared to spirit skills, and put you in more danger.
Obvious Solution: Add the damage and give you some means of protecting yourself.
Notes:
- How to protect one's self? If the damage output is good enough, then you might not even need to add protection. Make the offense become defense.

--

Reason: Quicker to just guillotine to death.
Obvious Solution: Either make guillotine slower (ouch) or make combos faster.
Notes:
- "Faster" doesn't always mean the whole thing has to be faster. At least kill faster.
- Making guillotine slower really hurts everyone else.
- Comboed guillotine uses no cast and is harder to evade. However, the whole combo pales in comparison to the final Guillotine.

--

Now go ahead and argue. :D

[Jayed]

I've always kind of wondered why guillotine fist was manual cast. if it could only come from the combo, it would have made monk into an entirely different class than it is today.

[Master Hung]

You guys are only thinking in PvM perspectives, but then again, you all seem to like combo champ because you're less pvp/woe oriented. The thing is, in PVP, relying on a 25% chance to even start your combo is a pain.I don't think is a pain... to say the truth, it is what makes a combo more fun to play. See, I went to a WoE once... A champ came running to me and started to cast gf. I started hitting him so he could not cast it. He spoke "NOOB". Then it came trip->quad->drag->gf and he said "Hi" to the Kafra. If it was sure that I would cast quad or whatever, this scenario wouldn't be fun.
Also, in WoE you have strings. Man, we really get more benefit from strings then spirit builds. In PvP, there are more means to win that isn't just GFing.

[KillaSpirit]

Raging thrust used to be aoe and pushback back in the day. I dont understand why they took it out.

[Jayed]

It was never a AoE except with spirit link. It did used to knock back, though.

[Doddler]

The real fix for monk/champions would be simply to make trifecta also an active targetable attack (but still retains passive bonus).

[Jayed]

That's basically what I said doddler :P

One of my older threads I said trifecta should be manual. Now I'm leaning towards quad, for various reasons. One being that it'd be too many hotkeys; another being that rogues can copy trifecta.

[Steax]

Probably the first things first; we need an easily usable AoE skill, there's no denying that.
Right now we've only got excruciating palm that doesn't even damage the surrounding monsters but only push them back (which is silly).

They were on the right track when they added the extra effects done by the new combos. Now they should just mean something.

How about just make it this way: a combo deals the damage done by itself plus previous combos (including Guillotine).

So if you do a 1k trifecta, the quad would be something like 1500 + (trifecta damage) = 2500, and so on. The final guillotine would be the accumulation of the previous damage, making it even deadlier.

How's that?

[sillbrink]

You guys are only thinking in PvM perspectives, but then again, you all seem to like combo champ because you're less pvp/woe oriented. The thing is, in PVP, relying on a 25% chance to even start your combo is a pain.
I get confused trying to understand what you are trying to do with your builds.

I built my champ to be pure combo for both woe and pvm (I do understand you said in terms of pvp in the quote above). I only have 50 agi and trifecta 10 and I have no problem getting Trifecta to activate in a fast time.
169 aspd with Mace - Lol if you are trying to combo with a mace, without AR
174 aspd with Knuckle Class weap - Sometimes you wait for the Trifecta.
178 aspd with no weap (also Mace Weap + AR) - If I realllly want tri to go off I go into the battle without a weap and when it activates I put on weap and finish the combo.
181 aspd with Knuckle and AAR
184 aspd with No weap and AAR - then you put on weap when combo activates, 181 aspd has been good enough for me unless I am trying to interrupt a fast caster / biochem.
If you want Tri to go off more often, get more agi, its as easy as that. You cant have it both ways.

I am going to have to disagree with both Jayed and doddler.
If you were to make Tri or Quad castable, it would make agi totally worthless in terms of pvp and woe (which would make everybuild the same, more or less). Next, unless they added style points to this game, doing a Chain Crush -> Gfist is just giving your enemies that extra ~1s to stop you (the extra damage from adding ccc really isn't that great).

This brings us back to the posts original point. The combos skills that champs get are poor and its the combos skills that need a boost, not your decision to get low agi and thus have a hard time getting trifecta togo off. I would be happy to wait that extra 1-2s for the combo to start if I knew that the following combo would bring a world of pain to my enemy. Like my idea suggests, if you got the combo started, you get 3 Glacials and 2 CCC and your opponent is locked. Just Zen and do it again (I still believe that Glacial / and CCC still need a buff, but this would be a start).

*Like I said above, I have a hard time understanding your viewpoints on this subject, when your answer to fixing a combo champ is to have another way to cast Gfist on demand, when playing a combo champ is so much more than that*

[Steax]

What if you could make combos chain infinitely? I mean, if you're really upset, you do a trifecta followed by quad 20 times over? The spirit sphere use would limit how many times you can repeat, but I say give more flexibility to the order. Maybe you could go trifecta, quad, thrust, quad, thrust, quad, thrust, quad, thrust, chain crush, guillotine? Hmm, scary thought.

This way, if you're upset with having to wait for the trifectas, you could just keep on comboing till your SP or hands or spirits run dry, without having to anticipate the next one.

[uome]

cut the sp cost in half and make raging thrust and the champ combo skills pierce defense....without changing the multipliers?

with trifecta 10 and 180 aspd (or higher) is not too bad to wait for triple to active. plus you are hitlocking your opponent in the meantime.

[TeaRs]

First time replying...

Greatest general card? just improve the chance of gaining a sphere when attacking/combo'ing (for monks and champions only) to like 20%, that'll solve the sphere recast and possibly an endless glacial and chain crush.

[Jayed]

You guys really miss the point bigtime. PVP is all about quickness. You don't have 1-3 seconds to wait for trifecta when a paladin is MRing you. You don't have the luxury of tapping people wearing stone curse armor. You don't have the luxury of meleeing someone with Arrow Repel, Smite, Spear Stab and the like readily available to push you away. In REAL PVP, you don't get much opportunity to melee someone to the full combo. In real PVP you won't ever win to a DEX champ, since they can steal your spheres before you even walk to close the distance, then your own SSA is too slow to stop their gfist. Hell, they can just root you and have a faster gfist once you're both rooted. The only thing that would save combo in PVP is to make them faster and more reliable--- such as starting from a manual activation. That, and better DPS so they're not so easy to shrug off like they are now.

Some kinda infinite combo from not needing spheres or lower SP cost will not change the fact that Combos fail at doing good damage poor second or suffer from extremely unsafe proximity to your enemy with leaving a lot of openings to the enemy because you're meleeing them instead of using single target or AoA skills from at least 2-3 cells away.

[Steax]

Ok then, something new is needed I suppose. How about a separate skill that will snap you right in front of the target and you proceed to do some kind of combo which you can chain upon?

[Jayed]

Something like

Snap Barrage
SP Usage: 6*Lv - Levels 5
Prerequisite: Snap 1, Raging Quadruple Blows 5

Snap to your target, then snap around them, punching them from their front, sides, and back. The enemy's defense and flee are each lowered by 20% for the next 5 seconds. There is a short delay following skill usage in which you may use Raging Quadruple Blows.

Lv 1 - 100%
Lv 2 - 150%
Lv 3 - 200%
Lv 4 - 250%
Lv 5 - 300%

Psychic Force
SP Usage: 34 - Levels: 5
Prerequisites: Occult Impaction 5, Raging Thrust 3

Can only be activated in the delay following Raging Thrust. Deliver a powerful blow that knocks the target back 7 tiles. Damage is based on ATK, but is affected by the target's MDEF instead of DEF, but also bypasses 50% of their mdef.

Lv 1 - 300%
Lv 2 - 600%
Lv 3 - 900%
Lv 4 - 1200%
Lv 5 - 1500%

Those 2 skills would make Combo Champ deadly in PVP.

[Zearth]

Just remove the delay and make it based on attack speed. Wala, character fixed. Also give it chances to ignore defenses, along with other buffing effects.
Also, make Fury do area damage. Zen->Fury->Zen->Fury.

[Priesty~]

I am sorry i do not understand this arguement if you want to go combo go combo but don't complain about it. We do have the most needed and overpowered skill in the game so USE IT.:D

[crash]

i want my champ to use Confusion from Chrono Trigger and have earthquake

no.

[Priesty~]

Why not that would be slick as hell.:gg:

[Steax]

I am sorry i do not understand this arguement if you want to go combo go combo but don't complain about it. We do have the most needed and overpowered skill in the game so USE IT.:D

Which is the whole irony. When the details on the monk first arrived, it was pretty much clear to everyone that guillotine is this last-ditch, emergency, last-chance strike to take out the enemy. It was not intended to be used 20 times in succession or to be our only skill. At the time, people understood that Thrust and TSS were supposed to be our master skills, on par with SB or BB.

--

To be honest, I sort of blame Guillotine for the huge increase in damage standards since the transcendent jobs. Everyone else was complaining about why they didn't have some skill that does 40k damage at once, and bingo, now they can do skills which can easily come close or surpass that rate.

[Erik]

CCC is retarded... You need a minimum of 39 skill points to get CCC maxed with the lower combo's not even maxed, while it's damage is not even that much greater then TSS. And you have to spend 10 freaking points in it. Even RPS is alot more deadlier.

Give thrust (50% damage bonus instead of splash with link) and CCC splash damage. Ignore defense would be hot aswell. Increase trigger chance of raging trifecta. And make CCC only consume 1 sphere instead of 2.

[Pocket Rocket !!]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the delete button yet. ?_?

On a serious note, I pretty much agree with Okami-chan and Doddler. Along with buffing up the damage, and making the full combo skills actually worth using would be pretty nice I'd imagine.

[Ahina Reyoh]

CCC is like Arrow Vulcan... minus the range, the easy weapon/ele switching, the ability to cast it anytime, and the ability to Lex it. I'd agree it needs some sort of buff. If it took one sphere... you could Raging-Glacial-CCC-Glacial-CCC, which makes more sense to me then having Glacial be the combo finisher.

[Jayed]

Drooping Monk [1]

Equips: Head
Class: Monk
Level: 40
Defense: 1

A replica of a monk drooped over the head. A monk wearing this feels the spirits of their ancestors driving their actions.

+10% melee damage
There is a high chance when performing certain attacks that you will autocast level 1 Zen.

(Note: The zen only procs on melee damage and the usage of combo skills. This is not a buff to spirit builds).

[Master Hung]

I liked the idea of using combo after snap or have a skill that let you snap and start a combo with it.

Hope gravity do a better thing to the "Shura" regarding combos =]

About the Combo never will win a Dex based champ, I kind of disagree. It is possible... need a good tactic, but it isn't impossible.

[WK]

Make combos work like on WoW's rogue class. As in award combo points for every performed combo skill, and give 3rd class a finishing move which damage multiplier is based on how many combo points you have acquired on the target... although this would still be shitty in pvp due to the maxhp of players being quite low and asura/etc being still infinitely more effective. It'd be decent in PvM on monsters with high maxhp.

[Teoc]

Man, i like the combo-way cause its fun to play. But its a pain in the ass recharge spheres every time you do a chain crush combo. And its even more absurd that your damage in ccc its lower that a TSS(CCC its a 10 level trans skill, TSS its a 5 level normal skill).

Fix it...2000% CCC its fair. Oh and one more thing, why , why combos haven o bonus for HIT ? Combos just CANT hit a MVP, nor even a player...Bash have hit bonus..this is just ridicoulous.

[Jayed]

she wants champs to use Confusion from Chrono Trigger and have earthquake

no.
Somebody obviously doesn't know that TSS does 1750%.

[sillbrink]

I agree with the +hit
So many other classes get +hit to their highly spammable (and nontrans might I add) skills and I get the privilege of getting up to CCC to only see it miss and waste sp and see a single digit combo go off.

I like some of the ideas above. I hope that some change will come along that will help combo champions in terms of both pvm and pvp, because as of now CCC is just poor.


Soul of Hels Leon [3]
A hard and sharp knuckle that was made from Hels Leon's 3 Horns.
While in close combat, there is a chance to do Vital Strike level 1 on an enemy.
When using Chain Crush Combo, there is a small chance to cast Occult Impact Level 1.
When physically attacking, there is a small chance to auto cast Summon Spirit Sphere.
Attack Power: 95
Weight: 60
Weapon Level: 3
Required Level: 60
Jobs: Champion
Vital Stike = +60% damage, 10% chance to cause various abnormal effects.

Compared to the other weapons that were just introduced, this is a joke.
The vital strike could be nice but nowadays status ailments arent as effective (not to mention it is a chance that vital strike will go off and then another 10% chance of your enemy being hit with an ailment).

HAXORS small chance to do OC1 when I do a CCC lol

The autocast SSS would be nice in normal leveling but bad in any pvp / woe setting.
Overall seems that a Battle Combo Glove would still be better than this.

I believe that the fix to combo champions should be a skill fix (or trans quest skill plz) and not a new weapon that gives some ability.

[uome]

if that doesnt have a .04% drop rate like the elem fists do or drop from some non-hunted monster then it could be decent

a high + and an elem converter could make that rather decent dmg.

speaking of combo gloves...they need to raise the drop rate to 1% or something as well as raise the drop rate of the elem fists. it is not like they are over powered..they actually start to put us in a dps range of other melee classes.

[sillbrink]

I totally agree about bumping up the drop rate for Combo Gloves much higher. I had dreams of getting a couple +7s for various leveling places.
Im fairly happy with the drop rate of the elemental fists. Magma, Ice, and Earth fist are easily gotten for 500k ea. Wind one has a higher drop rate, but not as many people lvl at harpys.

I would of liked the elemental gloves to have the elements bound to the fist and not have endows (much like the elemental katars next patch), but I am happy to have autoendow nonetheless.

[Ahina Reyoh]

Have they actually changed any skills in quite a while now? I can't remember any... just more and more autocast/%-chance weapons.

[Steax]

Have they actually changed any skills in quite a while now? I can't remember any... just more and more autocast/%-chance weapons.


Yeah. The current trend seems to be autocast cards or cards with the x%-chance-of-getting-n-amount-of-stat kind.

Gravity is obviously aware of the problem. The soul link effects were originally designed to pump up old mediocre builds, and when they gave us the monk link then they clearly knew that we need improvement in AoE skills and combos. But it's not enough, grav! :(

[Teoc]

we just need that someone in gravity read this discussion...and do something !

I really think that grav is Combo-oriented..at least all the equips that came to the game in the last updates were good for combo. I will be happy if they just gave the +HIT and do a trans quest that enables a chance(medium) that after CCC you trigger zen. Gravity dosen´t made the possibility of CCC>glacier>CCC inifinit for nothing..

(its really infinit, we tested a champ hiting a skogul and another monk giving spheres to him on bRO)

[uome]

I totally agree about bumping up the drop rate for Combo Gloves much higher. I had dreams of getting a couple +7s for various leveling places.
Im fairly happy with the drop rate of the elemental fists. Magma, Ice, and Earth fist are easily gotten for 500k ea. Wind one has a higher drop rate, but not as many people lvl at harpys.

I would of liked the elemental gloves to have the elements bound to the fist and not have endows (much like the elemental katars next patch), but I am happy to have autoendow nonetheless.


the endow stays pretty much with high aspd but it would help with switching if it stuck with the fist.

i have only seen 2 seismic fists in vend on chaos....and i broke them both to +7 =/. ive been lvling my monk in harpies for almost a week now...got 2 electrics first day (broke to +6) but none since.

i was thinking yesterday of a quest skill that would give you 5 different spheres(red perhaps) that could only be used for combos. the regular spheres could also be used for combos but it would give you a few extra to continue the chain. they would be summoned like zen (5 at a time) and give you +20 or +30hit when you had at least one of them up

[Jayed]

Actually that new hel's leon fist has extremely high ATK for a 3-slot knuckle, it does more damage than a waghnak or combo battle glove with a Quad Race/Element weapon on the combo that matters, Chain Crush. With a 2-2 combo glove and a 2-1 Hel's Leon, the damage is almost identical. With a size card (as you would with PVP weapons) the Hel's Leon does more damage. The damage increase is minimal though, like 200. This is, however, on top of the extra damage the occult and vital strike will be adding.

On Egnigem Cenia (she has similar stats to what you will face in WoE), Occult level one adds a blast of about 1760 (before reductions) on top of the 5180 or so that Chain Crush does, so that's nothing to scoff at. That is roughly a 32% increase to chain crush's damage, when it activates.

So this is really debatable.

[crash]

Somebody obviously doesn't know that TSS does 1750%.
I'm well aware of the % modifier that TSS has. I am also aware that it doesn't work off of MDEF or pierce said MDEF by a ridiculous amount, which is what earthquake does. The only real difference is that your skill wouldn't be forced neutral, wouldn't have a ~20 sec delay and wouldn't be spread out over 3 hits as to take advantage of lex. The only downside to the skill compared to earthquake would be that you don't have the ATK that some MVPs have and you wouldn't be able to Fury to make it do 4x damage.

That skill would be almost as powerful as GFist but only cost as much SP as zen. It would be fine if it weren't for the whole MDEF bullshit. Maybe have it pierce some % of their DEF, but if it's going to go off of MDEF, it should be based on the champ's MATK - which would be a buff to MVP champs more than combo.

Keep in mind that I don't disagree that combo champs are way less powerful than they should be - I'm on your side. I just don't think that the solution is more ridiculous burst damage - RO, and especially champs have enough of that.

Perhaps some quest skill that requires CCC10 and cuts SP and sphere costs on skills (excluding GFist of course) in half. Or perhaps a quest skill that raises the proc rate of Trifecta to 80~90% (buffs monks, but not Intim rogue/stalkers). The Drooping Monk isn't a bad idea, either.

[Master Hung]

There is a bad thing about this new weapon: Vital Strike.
Let's see the effect of it:
Ankle Break: 1/2 Movement Speed
Knee Break: Lose 10% ASPD and 30% movement speed.
Neck Break: Weakens them so Vital Strike caused 2x attack, inflicts bleeding status.
Should Break: Lose 50% VIT defense.
Waist Break: Lose 25% VIT defense and 25% ATK
Wrist Break: Lose 25% ASPDTake a look at the underlined words, they mean LESS damage with OI. Does it look good to hit a auto-OI after a auto-Vital Strike?
(A friend raised this issue at bRO fórum.)
It's only good for two things, auto-Summon Sphere and its ATK.

I hope shuras have more spheres or some kind of skill that take out/reduce the number of spheres used.

Like Teoc, I too tested the "endless combo." It is possible to unstopping chain Tiger with CCC while you have spheres. And it would be hell for everybody if combo shuras could really endlessly chain combos.

(It will be heaven for me if shuras won't need spheres for combos *-*)

[Ahina Reyoh]

On Egnigem Cenia (she has similar stats to what you will face in WoE), Occult level one adds a blast of about 1760 (before reductions) on top of the 5180 or so that Chain Crush does, so that's nothing to scoff at. That is roughly a 32% increase to chain crush's damage, when it activates.
In WoE though... 40% skill reduction, then another 40% for the generic Cranial + Beret. That alone cuts CCC's damage down below 2k, which is laughable to anyone using pots. I don't even see a reason to pull out CCC in WoE unless your target is wearing a GR or is a 7x char.

[Jayed]

It's still a 32% increase in damage. Also, CCC is only 1400% of a 3010% combo. The real damage a personw ill take from the full combo is closer to 4.5k, with this weapon.

Crash, I dunno what you are smoking, but the skill I proposed hits one person (as opposed to earthquake hitting full screen) and can't be activated on demand, it's part of a combo. And it has a lower modifier than TSS. The only perk to this skill is the fact that it will bypass defense, something other classes like Mastersmith and SinX can already do with weapons like Combat Knife and Bloody Roar. Only this skill lets the damage be reduced by half mdef, so those other classes are actually better off.

[Ahina Reyoh]

The OI is fixed neutral, and the 4.5k damage is dealt over the span of several seconds. It's just not worth it to full combo people in WoE when other classes can click one button and do more damage in an instant, and the new fist isn't going to change that.

[Erik]

The OI is fixed neutral, and the 4.5k damage is dealt over the span of several seconds. It's just not worth it to full combo people in WoE when other classes can click one button and do more damage in an instant, and the new fist isn't going to change that.

QFT

Why combo when you can use a skill called Guillotine fist?

[Priesty~]

This is a waste of an arguement. GFist solves this whole thread ill let know when i finally die to a combo champ in woe. Until then meet my 1400 sp 130 dex Gfist to your face. :D:stir:

[uome]

make combos not subject to woe skill reduction? make chain crush take 5 pts instead of 10 so you can still fit snap in a combo build?

1400sp and that much dex means u likely have around 7-8k maybe 9k hp and likely no def as you would have to use near/full sp gear. IF you don't die to something else i think a good build/equipped combo champ could end you rather easily in woe.

[Priesty~]

LOL your funny seriously 11k hp 50 def 1400 sp and 130 dex find out its pretty easy and the day a combo champ kills me with combos in woe ill quit this game. :stir:

[Master Hung]

I think this thread should be about making combos better. Let's not change the subject.

[Teoc]

LOL your funny seriously 11k hp 50 def 1400 sp and 130 dex find out its pretty easy and the day a combo champ kills me with combos in woe ill quit this game. :stir:

going to offtopic, well...its really nice that you are the strongest champ ! A Lego robot can do anything you do, but who cares ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now,about combos..i never thought about it..but taking of the sphere restriction would be the greater buff for combos.

[LoStPrOpHeT]

zup Hung, it's me...ºCloud Strivingº


my hopes are that they make some skill like Jayed proposed, the snap style, and maybe something like the Rogue-combo from WoW, but on RO this skill would ONLY be done after the combo with the "today" skills "Trip>Quad>Thrust>Tiger Fist>CCC"(5), and at the end of this, the new skill would be used without the need to spend Sphere, that would do like 2k% dmg, and a plus if you're "Furied".

ps: ideas only, but I would be really pleasant to see it come true

[uome]

after putting together a full set of +7 elem fists[3] and 3x-ing them, damage is not so much of a problem in areas where you do not have to switch. i am doing 650-1000 dmg per hit in places ive tested so far (hill winds, id2, harpies,roweens/gallions, high orcs) at 110 str on my monk. this puts it on par with melee dmg from other classes without the need for an endow slave

i think in order to "fix" combos, something has to be done with the sp cost and sphere cost as it has been mentioned multiple times. increasing the drop rate of the combo gloves to something more sane like .25% or more would also go a long way.

new skills or further changes would have to be done to have it be "fixed" for woe

[Master Hung]

If they just cut out the sphere cost, it will be already enough. Why? If I'm not wrong, all combos cost 2sp with SL's Spirit of Monk buff. You can chain Glacier and CCC while you have sp and spheres. If you don't need spheres and the cost is just 2sp, a Combo Champ with 1000 sp could chain 249 Glacier fists with 249 CCC. For me, 409080% damage is enough.

[Ahina Reyoh]

If they just cut out the sphere cost, it will be already enough. Why? If I'm not wrong, all combos cost 2sp with SL's Spirit of Monk buff. You can chain Glacier and CCC while you have sp and spheres. If you don't need spheres and the cost is just 2sp, a Combo Champ with 1000 sp could chain 249 Glacier fists with 249 CCC. For me, 409080% damage is enough.
Doesn't the link only reduce the SP cost of Quadruple and Raging Thrust, not either of the trans combos?

[Phaust]

If they just cut out the sphere cost, it will be already enough. Why? If I'm not wrong, all combos cost 2sp with SL's Spirit of Monk buff. You can chain Glacier and CCC while you have sp and spheres. If you don't need spheres and the cost is just 2sp, a Combo Champ with 1000 sp could chain 249 Glacier fists with 249 CCC. For me, 409080% damage is enough.

So combo champs would be TK rankers with fists?

[Teoc]

Doesn't the link only reduce the SP cost of Quadruple and Raging Thrust, not either of the trans combos?

No, everytime i get acess toa SL account i = happy, because them im finally capable of using the full combo.


So combo champs would be TK rankers with fists?

I think that combos always meanted to be like the TK skills are.

[Master Hung]

I think that combos always meanted to be like the TK skills are.I think it is the opposite, TK skills were meant to be like combos. :heh:

You see, Combos are so fun that Gravity created the TK that have combo-like skills with reduced SP cost (our wish for the Monk/Champion combos) and a skill that lets you chain a second attack after double strife (or something like it)... Beast Charge is the name of the skill if I'm not wrong. But, because it is based on strength and not dex, it isn't used.:(

(I have a Combo Champ in one account and a SL in the other, just like Castor./Teoc... to say the truth, it was him that told me CCC cost was 2sp with the the champion endowed by the spirit)

[Erik]

A soul linker doesn't solve anything. Having one is convenient, and i've done it before aswell. You can basically spam combo's over and over without worrying about sp, but that does not make combo's all of a sudden alot better. And by combo's i mean CCC of course. It still does crappy damage and you have to recast zen everytime.
Weapons are not going to solve anything either, because it won't adjust anything that makes CCC really worth it.

Thinking of ways is a waste of time. Maybe gravity will do something like adjust the sphere cost of CCC from 2 to 1, which i think is the most realistic adjustment possible. But don't expect anything.

[uome]

doing 30-40k with a full combo is not enough dmg? it is the sp sphere cost that makes it not spammable.

[Ichigo]

signum cruxis combo monkkkkkk

[Navy]

Make Fury remove the need to have a sphere for combo, pretty simple. Get linked and you can combo pretty much forever.

[Erik]

A combo that does 30-40k damage is not worth the skill points in my opinion. A combo is hard to lex, and a lexed TSS exceeds the damage of a full combo. So ya, it's not enough damage.

[Jayed]

It's only because with super high dex you can TSS, Zen, TSS, Zen, etc. over and over, spending only a few seconds at a time jamming out 1750% (3500% lexed) whereas the combo takes perhaps a few seconds to start and launch, then does that same 3000%+ over that time. It's not burst damage that can overwhelm someone's HP in one shot-- and it's not deliberate enough---quite random. So it fails in most situations to rank against TSS.

If the combo was more deliberate (manual activation) and the final damage was mighty enough (perhaps like two CCC in a row), it'd be a fearsome PVP move, I am sure. It'd still not be too useful for leveling, as extremely high level monsters aren't the sort of thing monks want to tank. It'd also be non-useful in MVP for the same reason. SP efficiency is what you'd need for solo leveling, definitely. It's too costly to combo every monster to CCC, worse if something has to follow it.

[Master Hung]

Damage isn't the only thing that is good. If it could be endlessly chained (Glacier<->CCC), even without killing, combos would be an amazing skill to lock enemies. I think that no one would like to be hit-locked under a SG. I played as a CritSin, my main ability was lock people to some one come and kill it (in that time there was no SinX or EDP).

IMHO a good Combo Monk/Champ should have at least 175 ASpd. This means 120 hits per minute or 2 hits per second. Trifecta activates in an average of 4 hits. This means that in average, it might activate once in 2 seconds. That is good.

I only agree with the manual activation in the case of "snap and combo." You have to get near the enemy to start hitting it. If I could use "new snaping combo"-> CCC -> Glacier -> CCC would be wonderful.

About MvPing, what do you think of endlessly chaining CCC and Glacier? Wouldn't it be wonderful? Imagine you do about 500 damage to a MvP and with the chaining you'll do 2,045,400 damage without having to reload your sp.

About the idea of combos not costing spheres if the monk/champ is in Fury state. In the bRO forum we had a project of making skill or improvements to our classes and send it to Gravity. It was called Project Equilibrium.

I'll say again what I think that puts a limit in Combo Monks/Champions power: SPIRITUAL SPHERES.

[Jayed]

If you wanna hold someone in place under a SG... make a rogue. Close confine is infinity billion times better than any sort of "hit lock" you could attempt.

I don't really agree. Raging Palm Strike has a better damage per second than combos IMO and more reliable. That uses no spheres. Only if you could do chain crush over and over and over and over would combo ever be good DPS over time in pvp/woe/mvp. And you have to admit that is kinda ridiculous, doing a 1400% skill over and over with no delay... it's just not the right answer. Making the sphere cost 1 probably couldn't hurt-- then you'd be able to CCC twice in one go.. which might hurt someone. It really needs a def-piercing effect though. Perhaps with the new PVP knuckles that bypass 20% def. Needs to be more like 30% imo.

Some incentives for using GFist from the combo might be worth looking into? Like having it not 'consume' your SP if you spring it from the combo.

[Erik]

About MvPing, what do you think of endlessly chaining CCC and Glacier? Wouldn't it be wonderful? Imagine you do about 500 damage to a MvP and with the chaining you'll do 2,045,400 damage without having to reload your sp.

Dream on.

[Master Hung]

I don't like thief like classes. My brother love then though, so time to time I play with it. To say the truth, I got zenny for my Morrigane Set from killing Sleepers and play WoE with his SinX =p

RPS might not use spheres, but puts you in need to be in Fury status. And at PvM isn't quite that good because of the drawback effect. If Combos didn't cost Spheres at Fury status, it'd be better then RPS. Can you see that our problem IS the sphere cost?

Those battleground knuckles are shit. I got curious about them and had hand made calculus for damage. Damage wasn't that higher then the new combo glove (barrage fist). Full combo wouldn't do more then 5k damage. Probably that frying pan mace will be more effective then the battleground knuckles.

About the no cost at a GF ended combo, it would be lovely *-*

[Erik]

Atleast RPS is 100x more usefull in woe then ccc. :)

And equip yourself an earth deleter armor, and the right damage increasing gear/wep and kill high orcs by 1 hitting with rps lvl 4. Bring lots of fly wings, and have fun.

RPS does not have to suck for leveling.

[Master Hung]

Atleast RPS is 100x more usefull in woe then ccc.Because it doesn't use spheres. Got it? =p

RPS does not have to suck for leveling.I have a friend... Soul is his character name. A 130 dex/100 str Champion. As he have a really fast cast, he can make "combos" like RPS->OI->TSS in about 5s... a lot of damage. BUT he have a high dex for it and I don't. I don't really think RPS is a good skill for combo champs... at least, not for my combo champ. :)

[Doddler]

If you wanna hold someone in place under a SG... make a rogue. Close confine is infinity billion times better than any sort of "hit lock" you could attempt.


Well glacier fist causes ankle snare effect (1/2 duration of a lv 5 snare), so its pretty good at locking if you can get to that point in the combo in any decent amount of time.

[sillbrink]

@above,
Ya thats pretty much all I do in woe on my combo champ anyways. Glacial->CCC->Glacial, zen, repeat for freeze lock and even if they run away mid combo, you can still finish the combo even if they are half a screen away. I just consider myself additive damage. Glacial fist still dosn't seem to work that often. They should add in a high chance to silence as well or some other status effect (like an agi down effect instead of ankle snare effect)

I had a thought about some changes that could boost combo champ (more so 3rd job stuff but nonetheless). Somehow make the combo CCC->Glacial->CCC by either getting rid of sphere cost of glacial 5 or CCC 10 sphere cost down to 1.

Add in 2 new sphere types (which would have a higher sp cost)
Red Sphere = +25% damage
Blue Sphere = +25% def bypassing
Depending on the sphere available when doing a combo, the combo would be boosted by the color sphere used. So, if CCC was used with 2 Red spheres the damage would boosted by another 50%. Just something along the lines of this would at least be interesting. Of course, they would have to add in another combo that could be activated if certain requirements where met, to use 4-5 spheres at once.

[Erik]

Because it doesn't use spheres. Got it? =p
Combo's without sphere cost in fury is fiction. If you seriously think the development team at your server takes that suggestion seriously, then go for it.

I have a friend... Soul is his character name. A 130 dex/100 str Champion. As he have a really fast cast, he can make "combos" like RPS->OI->TSS in about 5s... a lot of damage. BUT he have a high dex for it and I don't. I don't really think RPS is a good skill for combo champs... at least, not for my combo champ. :)
So your friend is leveling by "combo'ing" those skills? Why not just gfist?

But RPS is good on any champ. The cast time is not based on dex atleast.

[Master Hung]

Combo's without sphere cost in fury is fiction.Indeed, it is fiction, but this thread is about what would "fix" combo. I'm saying that the problem is sphere cost and if you remove it, combos will be a lot better.:)

If you seriously think the development team at your server takes that suggestion seriously, then go for it.Hey, hey! I just said that we gave gravity an idea. At my server we have a "Player Commission" that makes monthly reunion with the managers of the game to talk about problems in the server and ideas to solve it. These people really go to the place and see the managers with their own eyes. They make papers and publish the results of each reunion. I'm not really counting on Gravity or LUG (Level Up! Games) to make the changes we suggested. But, well, that was my suggestion... my dream... What is your problem with dreaming?:mad:

So your friend is leveling by "combo'ing" those skills? Why not just gfist?You do a RPS->RPS->RPS->RPS->RPS combo in a Wizz/HWizz or GFist him? Do you really think that GFist is the only solution to kill?

But RPS is good on any champ. The cast time is not based on dex atleast.I don't really think so... this thing about knocking back the enemies is what makes me don't like it.:(

[Jayed]

Enemies cannot be knocked back in WoE. RPS is spammable in WoE and is better damage over time than combo. And doesn't require dex. hence, combo is useless. Now discuss ways to make combo not useless. Comboing for less sp will just put better than RPS in terms of frequency of use in leveling only.

[Blind Blade Master?]

im new to this but i do have a combo monk and I was wondering would increasing the drop rate of the combo battle glove and increase the damage it did maybe be a way that gravity actually think about doing? or would that be to much coding for the battle glove or something ?

[Feint]

Make all fist class weapons increase champions' combo damage by 40%. Problem solved and everyone's happy.

[Teoc]

I like to think that combos have a jogability like the King of fighters..or another arcade fight game. Zen in the middle of every combo break this jogability....its just lame.

Resuming te post, combos should have : More HIT, less sp cost, less spheres cost, and manually activating if possible (no sphere cost at all if its possible !)

Dont seem a overpower list..

[Priesty~]

Suggestions are nice to send to the GMs but i seriously see nothing happening. I never seen a GM ever change a skill in a postive way. Just hope with 3rd classes comes out hope something good happens to your combos seriously.

[sillbrink]

When champions were introduced I was really hoping for a skill much like advanced katar mastery but for fist class weapons only.

Im hoping that the 3rd class for champs will be like what happened for sages (sages were not that useful but their trans more than made up for it).

Youd seriously think that making some of these changes would be so easy to do (like changing battle glove drop rate or removing the cost of a sphere to a skill), but I know from experience it takes a lotta yelling to get stuff fixed in this game.
Took me (and others) over a year of complaining to get the double bolt bug fixed to work as it should have when it was implemented.

[uome]

what about just increasing drop rate of combo gloves to .1 or .2% and changing the effects to say "increase dmg by 30% which pierces defense. combo skills sp cost reduced to 5sp"

you could also do something like "each upgrade increases armor piercing dmg by 2%"

[pistola]

"overpowered" should never be used in the same thread as "combo champs" unless there is an "aren't" in front.

[Atum]

When champions were introduced I was really hoping for a skill much like advanced katar mastery but for fist class weapons only.
Would that really change much the balance between asura and combo?
Wouldnt asurachamps also go for fists with the +20% dmg for fists?
The size penalty would be very slim when using fists since they dont have that much baseatk in the first place.

[Ahina Reyoh]

They could just make the bonus work like the Combo Glove, as in only affecting combo damage.

[rolypolybug]

Why not just make separate weapons that incorporates a lot of the features people have suggested and can be switched depending on what you want to do?

Like a fist that halves combo damage, but add's a high chance to cause status effects with each successful move in the combo (mute for quad, stun for raging, same effect for glacier, critical wounds level 2 for CCC?).

And another fist that makes combos do 200% (or more) damage, but disables the ability to gfist at the end.

And a fist that enables manual activation for combos, but either doubles sp cost or has a relatively low damage potential.

Something like that. Doesn't seem overpowered, but could definitely make combo champs viable.

[Master Hung]

Why not just make separate weapons that incorporates a lot of the features people have suggested and can be switched depending on what you want to do?I like the idea. And from all you said, this...

And another fist that makes combos do 200% (or more) damage, but disables the ability to gfist at the end.... is would be wonderful. It would make my final build hit about 7k damage in one CCC ended combo (no glacier used) in WoE. 16k out of WoE.

[Jayed]

keep in mind that gfist will kill someone no matter what, and if they intend to gfist, the damage of the preceding combo is somewhat irrelevant, so I'd say disabling gfist after the combo is rather silly. If anything, the combo should proceed the gfist at higher damage to actually make a combo'd gfist have an advantage over manually casting-- which is otherwise superior in every aspect.

[sillbrink]

Overall, no matter what you will do to combos, gfist will always be superior in terms of quick damage. The only way to change that would be to add extra damage bonus and some fairly devastating status ailment.

A high lvl of Slow Casting for glacial fist (60% slower cast time?)
ChainCrushCombo would seem to me that after taking the attack your enemies should be severly crippled. So why not add in an agi down effect and high bleeding chance. Or maybe even put 40% Critical Wounds as an effect to one of the combos.

[Atum]

How about

Raging thrust - splashattack (3*3 cells)
Glacier fist - ignores 50% of enemies def, 30% chance to stun all enemies in a 5*5 area
Chain crush combo - def ignoring dmg, 50% chance to cast critical wounds lvl 2 (-40% heal), 50% chance to cause statuseffects from vital strike (ankle break, wrist break, etc).
Asura at the end of a combo right after chain crush combo : +100% asuradmg (iono, too strong?)

[Jayed]

I think Champs just need, say, a claw that enables the chance to cast "Critical Wounds" Level 3 or something on the enemy when using "Raging Quadruple Blows", "Raging Thrust", "Glacier Fist", or "Chain Crush Combo". The chance would be higher as you went further up, making it more and more assured the longer you chain the combo.

imo Crit wounds solves a lot of problems with skills being too weak for woe by making them harder to out-pot without increasing their damage output.

I feel like Snipers need to be able to crit wound lvl 1-2 or something

[Nezach]

a combo'ed gfist should deal double damaga in that case...which is way to much imo.
i like the increased damage and status idea. the status effects should only work during WoE/PvP though and damage should be increased while in PvM.

trifecta: 450% damage (400% in woe), 50% chance to cause blind and 30% to cause agi down lvl 5 (against possible agi chars -> the following combos have to hit)

quad: 600% damage (550% in woe), 50% chance to cause bleeding

finish: 800% damage (750% in woe), 70% chance to cause one random negative status effect

glac: 1000% damage (900% in woe), 80% chance to cause stun for the next 2 seconds (not effected by vit) (i don't want them to pot before/while/after CCC)

CCC: 2000% damage (still 2000% in woe) ignores def of the enemy, skills of the enemy can't be used for the next 5 seconds and removes all kinds of positive buffs....especially deadly poison (i want the last part in the skill description) (the enemy is left speechless lol) ....

glac again for the stun -> time to recast zen and start attacking again


overall 5500% (?) damage in woe before reductions...(5850% in PvM) in addition to "combo-useful" status effects.
-remove woe-reduction for combos (maybe a little overpowered)
-or remove the reduction as long as in fury mode.
-or our race becomes angel / demon by random when using combos (got style Oo)
-or ignore immune

And the delays for the combos should be reduced

hell i want to work for grav to change everything to cool lol. it's fun to make up things for combos q,q

add stereotypical wish for "no sphere need while fury" (now may be a little to powerful)

for Shura:

-dual wielding (come on...attacking with only one fist ???)
-increased dodge rate

- a skill which will grant you high aspd (+25%? on lvl 3) for the next one minute (30 seconds on woe maps) costs 20 sp.

-new combos with variation possibility (like using "12 swords" (made up combo name) instead of glacial for different status effects to confuse the enemy)

-a combo part which will deal additional damage when using more combo parts (like mentioned before)

-the snap thing...definitely the snap thing lol

-maybe critting combos....the sound would be awesome

-an aoe attack where damage and casttime are influenced by agi and dex

-more spheres (like the additional combo damage spheres mentioned here)

-you'll get additional attackspeed when landing consecutive (?) attacks without being hit and if the next attack has been started within 7 seconds

sorry for my bad english


Nezach

[uome]

if they made combos non-skill damage and gave crit wounds effect to CCC would help alot. this would mean no reduction in woe and could actually help break an emp.

combo gloves should have chance to inflict bleeding and/or pierce defense even if by %.

also they could make SSA success formula on monsters be affected by agi. this would solve the sp problem.

[Steax]

You know, I think people are beginning to forget one thing:

There is no perfect, all-round, superpower build.

Flaws in other classes have allowed some such builds to exist. Single builds that outshine other builds of the same class. When this happens, that build becomes stereotypical and people will often claim it as "overpowered". Why? Because of that class, that single build kills all others. And when people see it do everything better than any other build, then they say "that build is overpowered!".

Monks haven't had this. Combos are meant for pvm, not mvp or woe. I think this is how gravity is thinking.

I do agree that combos need some buffs. But I suggest people to stop trying to make combo champs better in woe/pvp/mvp than the other builds.

Guillotine will outdamage combos. That is a given fact. But remember, guillotine isn't used in pvm except for top-level hunts with scholars around. Guillotine alone won't get you to 99. Don't try to make a combo's guillotine as strong as a pure guillotine type. Why? Because if they do, everyone will stop making guillotines and start making combos.

Then people will see combos as overpowered.

That's how it works, sadly. :(

[rolypolybug]

keep in mind that gfist will kill someone no matter what, and if they intend to gfist, the damage of the preceding combo is somewhat irrelevant, so I'd say disabling gfist after the combo is rather silly. If anything, the combo should proceed the gfist at higher damage to actually make a combo'd gfist have an advantage over manually casting-- which is otherwise superior in every aspect.

I actually find your reasoning and suggestions rather silly. You're trying to make combo'ing into gfist comparable to manually casting gfist, which I don't think it should be in the first place.

Spirit monks focus on gfist in terms of damage and cast speed. Combo'ers focus on damage output through the combo, with the optional end of gfist which has the advantage of being able to cast at any range so long as the combo is started, and having a faster than usual cast. Of course you're not going to be as effective at gfisting as spirit monks that are MADE to be more effective at gfisting.

Where Gravity went wrong is in the usefulness of combos. By implementing new gloves, they serve to make combos useful by either 1) having a high damage output or 2) having other useful effects.

You already stated that RPS does more damage over time; by making combos do double damage this is alleviating that problem PvP-wise, with the added benefit of not having to be in fury status. This is a decent tradeoff for the time it takes to activate the combo. It would also be a great leveling weapon if you want to use combos.

The point of the weapon is that the combo is the damage dealer. It's not hard to understand, just get out of the mentality that combo's have to be succeeded by gfist and start thinking about the combo itself.

Making some of the suggested status effects inherent parts of the combo's would be quite a bit overpowered, considering that you could then add more status cards into the weapon itself or focus on damage along with all the status effects. I like Jayed's idea of the critical wounds fist, though maxing out at level 2 instead of 3 (2 is already wtfcrazy to begin with), and feel that that weapon alone would make combo'ing worthwhile.

[Ichigo]

currently working on a speed status inducing combo demonic failure monk until i get bored of it.

or at least until I get a combo battle glove and decide to stop playing it after using it.
roweens need to put out more :an:

[Erik]

Each level of chain crush combo increases knuckle damage in a passive way (except for gfist). Like, every level is 5%. So at level 10 CCC you end up with 50% better damage.

[Lilly]

Each level of chain crush combo increases knuckle damage in a passive way (except for gfist). Like, every level is 5%. So at level 10 CCC you end up with 50% better damage.

Is this what you think it should do, or does it do that now? o_o

[Erik]

Is this what you think it should do, or does it do that now? o_o

I think it should have that 50% extra damage. Gives combo champs a nice advantage over the spirit champs if it comes to pvm. And it puts some difference between combo monk and combo champ when it comes to damage dealing with combo's

[Master Hung]

We could have a skill that lesses the ss cost of combos by 1. Thrust and Glacier wouldn't have cost in ss, but CCC would have 1. This way would be possible to chain 6 Glaciers with 5 CCC. A good damage (10240%) that is better than TSS (1750% damage), but takes more time to deal. Combo (60 dex) would do about 600% damage per second while a spirit (130 dex) would do about 1600% damage per second. What do you think?

[Jayed]

I think at this point the most practical solution is a critical wounds-inducing claw. Combos don't need to do more damage so much as they need to do "competitive damage". You can do more with less when the enemy can't pot as quickly. Plus, you'd also serve a supplemental role by assisting your guild a lot better than you would currently do with a combo monk/champ.

For PvM that new claw with episode 13 seems pretty good to sate your sphere cost problem, depending on how often the summon sphere activates.

[Teoc]

Yeah, someone got the item code ?
Just to know the chance of using spiritual sphere

CCC with one sphere will be the better buff....i think that will help everyone =D
PvM, PvP & WoE

[Master Hung]

If I'm not wrong weapons that auto-casts skills only work for common attacks. Combos are skills, so you won't summon spirit spheres in the meddle of a combo. The effect of summoning spheres seems to be there just to cover the auto-cast OI lvl1 sphere cost. It is the same of ring of flame lord + ring of ressonance. They auto-cast zen to pay the cost of fury and asura.

[paranoidjester]

why not just increase aspd on knuckle type weapons? the way i see it as most combo types are agi based and should be dps build. Or give the flee skill a buff and make it give +3% aspd at level 10 or something, that way should make combos more frequently at cost of lower agi and so can be distributed elsewhere. That and the flee skills is not really that useful (15+ flee at lvl 10) so it would be a nice way to make it better.

[uome]

nobody gets...or should get flee past lv 5 as needed for other skills.

as i start using the combo gloves...they should either increase the bonus to 50% or increase the availability of it (raising the drop rate to 1%). the damage of a +7 is not that much better than a +10 mace with the same cards.

the extra bonus def could be if the skills are maxxed or something.
aspd is fine.

[Master Hung]

I got that full adrenaline rush once with knuckles. It is wonderful to have 184 of aspd, but with such, the delay of combos start to be anoying. With such aspd you won't want to combo, you will only want to hit monsters (at least, was my case).

Even if you get a good aspd and want to combo, you will lose sp really, really fast. Like, with 184 aspd you attack will attack once every 0.32s. Once every 1.28s you will start a combo. A trip5->quad5->thrust5->CCC10 costs you 52 SP and 3 spheres (Suposing using Zen and SSS once for 6 spheres, it takes 14 SP per combo). Applying the full delay of each combo, we have 2.6s. A total of 66 SP every 3.88s. With 1000 SP, in 58.78s you would lose all you SP to combing. Less than 1min.

A solution would be raising SP to +50% and putting the calculus of Asura to SP/12 (actally it is SP/8) or lessing the Combo cost and/or the sphere cost. Any way, lets just wait and see what Gravity will do with the Shuras.

(Obs: if you have the SL spirit, the time to spend all 1000 SP in combing would be 3min13s)

[uome]

haha how many things in game would survive a full combo that you would be lvling off of? i have all combos maxed except CCC is only at lv 5 atm but i rarely use anything past quad. my end build will have 183 aspd naturally so i can ctrl click away =).

if they made the elem fists the element instead of depending on endow proc-ing and they increased the dmg bonus or base atk of the combo battle gloves, combo champs could be a very practical melee class. this would put us on par with dagger sins

[Ahina Reyoh]

haha how many things in game would survive a full combo that you would be lvling off of? i have all combos maxed except CCC is only at lv 5 atm but i rarely use anything past quad.
Anubis and Nameless Island, I'd think. Most newer monsters now have lots of HP too.

[sillbrink]

More often than not, the higher hp monsters are out of are sadly out of our hit range. Some of the TT / and even Thor monsters seem ok for a combo champ, but their hit is too high.

183 aspd on your combo champ seems like every other combo champ ive met. To me a combo champ should use the combos for damage and not so much the aspd. Having that much aspd seems that your str isn't that good atm and combos wont be doing quite the damage youd expect. Theres always Bison / Thorn Combo if you have the funds to give a boost to your aspd.

Remember that you can bridge combos from one monster to another in order to be as efficient with your sp as possible.
Tri -> Quad -> Thrust (dead monster ) -> CCC (target and kill 2nd monster). My CCC does about 12-16k damage (depending on def and elemental weakness) which is more than enough to kill most average monsters.

My build goes for less agi, more vit, max str and higher dex. I combo A LOT and I mean A LOT. When the next monster comes into range and walks twords me I SSA him and my cast time is fast enough it finishes before the monster reaches me. In nameless with a HP and just mag I can combo every monster and not run outta sp (I have fairly low int as well).

if they made the elem fists the element instead of depending on endow proc-ing and they increased the dmg bonus or base atk of the combo battle gloves, combo champs could be a very practical melee class. this would put us on par with dagger sins
Agreed totally on the elemental fist idea. This would also make high dex champs SSS a lot easier without having to rely on endows. ComboGloves do need a boost and also a +drop increase as well so we can actually work on overupgrading them.
Sadly next patch, sins will have carded elemental katars and have life easier still.

Im slowly working on a video to show my build since there isn't much out there on youtube thats decent or legit.

[Master Hung]

Indeed, all the calculus I made was with an unstoppable fight without regarding SP regeneration. I too SSA monsters before start hitting.

Actually, my combo champ (lvl 91/60) have str83, agi79, vit18, int31, dex40, luk1. Agi, int and dex are already maxed. Str will be 92, vit 38 and luk 2. With equipment and buffs, I get str120, agi 100, vit 45, int 48, dex 60 and luk 5. I can only do 5.5k as average damage yet. The agi is not only for ASPD, it is also for flee. For example, I can get 95% flee rate from Seyren Windsor if I offensive bless him (I beleave in my flee rate).

In bRO, we're still at beta test of Nameless, but I have some friends that want to rock the island: a combo monk with signum crusis 10 (Kyrie), a war combo champ and a combo/spirit champ (Teoc). There is no monster that can stand a full combo yet in bRO. I can even kill sleepers with it (tryed once and I think I can level pretty well there with Spirit of Monk).

Although we don't have nameless, I too think that it would be wonderful to have a higher drop of combo gloves. I wish I can get a +10 Combo Gloves when Nameless arive here. I still think we could have higher sp and/or less sphere cost for combo skills =/

[uome]

More often than not, the higher hp monsters are out of are sadly out of our hit range. Some of the TT / and even Thor monsters seem ok for a combo champ, but their hit is too high.

183 aspd on your combo champ seems like every other combo champ ive met. To me a combo champ should use the combos for damage and not so much the aspd. Having that much aspd seems that your str isn't that good atm and combos wont be doing quite the damage youd expect. Theres always Bison / Thorn Combo if you have the funds to give a boost to your aspd.

Remember that you can bridge combos from one monster to another in order to be as efficient with your sp as possible.
Tri -> Quad -> Thrust (dead monster ) -> CCC (target and kill 2nd monster). My CCC does about 12-16k damage (depending on def and elemental weakness) which is more than enough to kill most average monsters.

My build goes for less agi, more vit, max str and higher dex. I combo A LOT and I mean A LOT. When the next monster comes into range and walks twords me I SSA him and my cast time is fast enough it finishes before the monster reaches me. In nameless with a HP and just mag I can combo every monster and not run outta sp (I have fairly low int as well).


Agreed totally on the elemental fist idea. This would also make high dex champs SSS a lot easier without having to rely on endows. ComboGloves do need a boost and also a +drop increase as well so we can actually work on overupgrading them.
Sadly next patch, sins will have carded elemental katars and have life easier still.

Im slowly working on a video to show my build since there isn't much out there on youtube thats decent or legit.


thats 183 aspd using bison combo and at 1k+ per hit...i think i will do ok :). should b 90 by this weekend.

[LoStPrOpHeT]

Indeed, all the calculus I made was with an unstoppable fight without regarding SP regeneration. I too SSA monsters before start hitting.

Actually, my combo champ (lvl 91/60) have str83, agi79, vit18, int31, dex40, luk1. Agi, int and dex are already maxed. Str will be 92, vit 38 and luk 2. With equipment and buffs, I get str120, agi 100, vit 45, int 48, dex 60 and luk 5. I can only do 5.5k as average damage yet. The agi is not only for ASPD, it is also for flee. For example, I can get 95% flee rate from Seyren Windsor if I offensive bless him (I beleave in my flee rate).

In bRO, we're still at beta test of Nameless, but I have some friends that want to rock the island: a combo monk with signum crusis 10 (Kyrie), a war combo champ and a combo/spirit champ (Teoc). There is no monster that can stand a full combo yet in bRO. I can even kill sleepers with it (tryed once and I think I can level pretty well there with Spirit of Monk).

Although we don't have nameless, I too think that it would be wonderful to have a higher drop of combo gloves. I wish I can get a +10 Combo Gloves when Nameless arive here. I still think we could have higher sp and/or less sphere cost for combo skills =/

same with while i was still playing bRO and hunting sleepers for Great Natures, it was: first SSA the monster, then Quad(5)>Thrust(3)>CCC(10) and bam...dead Sleeper(+7 Flame Fist + 115 Str 94/62)
it was too much easy killing this way, but the amount of bots on the map(and the whole server) made me quit the game

[Hybrid_Addict]

Get a chain or something. Stronger than Knuckles but will slow down the speed enough for you to land combos accurately.

[Steax]

Uhh, land combos accurately? The delays don't have to do with weapon ASPD. And it's not about being difficult to time, it's that they're just not doing enough damage.

[Hybrid_Addict]

Oh I thought it would be easier if it was done with a mace XD

[Dishonru]

I have an easy step to fixing combo champs

delete your character

This step has an alternate option. It's called accept that they are not an optimal build and enjoy your character.

[Deviattor]

As a thread specifically for combo champs I'd recommend keeping the harsh truth only for topics where discussion is about different champ builds.

[Ahina Reyoh]

I have an easy step to fixing combo champs

delete your character
You're 7 pages late, heh.

Though with the talk of comboing Sleepers...

[Jayed]

As a thread specifically for combo champs I'd recommend keeping the harsh truth only for topics where discussion is about different champ builds.
Combo champ is no less of a build than permanent novice or battle priest. Also, speculation threads are fun for many people, and within the scope of this forum. Everyone with a combo champion knows they are an inferior build, just like anyone with a gunslinger knows they are inferior to a biochemist in WoE. Telling people their build sucks here is hardly necessary or relevant, and I'd have expected more from an admin, honestly.

At any rate, back on topic. I always saw combo as a skill that could bridge low DPS melee with higher DPS. With the new renewal server changes, and everyone attacking slower, and lower HP totals, combos might not be so bad afterall, you think? At least, in PVM. Higher EXP monsters might be quelled with a single chain crush.

[Dishonru]

Combo champ is no less of a build than permanent novice or battle priest. Also, speculation threads are fun for many people, and within the scope of this forum. Everyone with a combo champion knows they are an inferior build, just like anyone with a gunslinger knows they are inferior to a biochemist in WoE. Telling people their build sucks here is hardly necessary or relevant, and I'd have expected more from an admin, honestly.He told me to not troll this thread, and not to put down combo champs. He was scolding me, not combo champions.

Also, you are resetting your combo champ.

On a serious note combo champions can be a lot of fun. I had one before.

[Jayed]

He told me to not troll this thread, and not to put down combo champs. He was scolding me, not combo champions.
He made a backhanded comment about combo champs with his "harsh truth" phrase.

[Master Hung]

@Jayed: I believe Deviator used "harsh truth" as sarcasm against Dishonru.

@Combo builds

Combo builds are more difficult to play then common cookie-cuter spirit builds in WoE. But they are easier to play in PvM. You see, with Pneuma and offensive blessing I can tank seyren with flee. I'm planing on solo Nameless with a Combo Battle Gloves with 4 seal cards (+10 hit and +3 flee, for novice and evolution you get +7 crit) and acolyte/blessed card set. Maybe use a Morrigane set if I have a party.

[sillbrink]

You say they are "easier" to play in PvM. From my experience most all other classes have the ability to get superior exp as a trans class ("abusing certain maps") whereas Im sitting here lvling at nontrans places because either I dont have enough hit (those mosnters that need 190+ hit), or have uber high def (in which occulting is just plain better), or they decide to add in stupid reflect (I was expecting to lvl at necros on my champ but I dislike the damage recieved from doing a full combo). I have to admit I dont have a teady bear card (which Ive kicked myself for not buying that 40mil on so long ago), so Id assume with that I would be an effective tank / damage dealer for a party.

I can still go back to old school and just gfist things in bio3 or whatnot but its just not the same.

Ive solod nameless better with the grandcross weapon (the +sp and TU3 is nice). I guess a carded could be better if you had asperio scrolls.
4 seal cards o.O?
I can see using one for the monk set, but without skel worker cards in there your damage will suffer.
Morrigane set is a nice set but Ive become saddened in loosing 4 very important slots (immune / delux, and now that I have BSB the set is not worth more than cheap cooking gear).

[Master Hung]

The mean to use four seal cards is to have 100% hit and 95% flee. I don't know if it means a lower damage per time because I wouldn't like to have a 'miss' showing instead of the beautiful damage of Chain Crush Combo.
As I said, I'm just planning. Don't know yet if I'll do this way. I need to have my Battle Sage get lvl 82 to hunt my future seal cards (he is lvl 79 actualy and I'm lazy to lvl him =).
And I didn't mean the Monk Set. I really thinking on the Acolyte/Blessed Set because of the 30% damage reduction from Demons and Undeads.

Morrigane is to make a "show" with crits. And I would only use it with a party because I'd lose the flee from a Whisper Card and Glory can raise the crit rate even more.

As I said earlier, I still beleave that flee is a good kind of defense. In my case, is my main kind of defense.


(sorry for the writting errors, this Firefox don't have spell check =/ )

[Robbie Analog]

Fuck, dude, are you serious?

[Priesty~]

They are unfortunately. :yawn:

[uome]

novice set card bonuses only apply to novices....your best bet would be to put the teddy card in a platinum shield.

you can get 100% hit or near enough and 95% flee or near enough to solo nameless without seal cards.

for lv 2 nameless hunting. i am thinking that a teddy carded thorny buckler + buffalo horn + grandcross will probably be the best way to go. just melee away and use the sp to buff/heal yourself instead of comboing.

in 2 levels and once i get hell/requiem thorny bucklers, i will be soloing nameless on my champ.

[Atum]

novice set card bonuses only apply to novices....your best bet would be to put the teddy card in a platinum shield.
Platinum shields arent slotted.
I guess you mean thorny buckler.

[Master Hung]

Sorry, I meant the Acolyte/Blessed Set. And as I know, it works with Acolyte, Priest, Monk, High Priest and Champion.

(In Brazil, Acolyte was translated as Noviço. A false cognate)

[uome]

Platinum shields arent slotted.
I guess you mean thorny buckler.


aw well thought it was...

[Twin Dragon]

How about using Quadruple Blow out of Root? I know that forcing root into a combo monk/champ build takes valuable points, but I'm wondering whether you can actually chain the rest of the combo's after this, it's a sort-of surefire way. You won't be able to RT->Glacier->CCC->Glacier, since you'll use a spirit sphere on Root...

Provided that you can follow up on Root's quad blow, of course. Anyone who knows/can test this? It wouldn't be that valuable in PVP most likely, since no one will attack you w/o skills (unless you can silence them perhaps) but I can think of a couple PVM uses :)

[Master Hung]

I've tested the Root-> Quad -> Thrust -> CCC in PvP with a friend at bRO Sakray (Veins Beta Test). We're both Combo Champs and we both could do it.

[Toledo]

@All the people who want more SS: There's always Greatest General card, which casts Level 5 SS at 2% chance. Yeah I know it's shit, just saying.

What I'd do is make all combos completely stun enemies as long as you're comboing, counting by the animation time(Obviously the option to cast Glacial after CCC would need to be removed). They can't move, they can't pot, and they can't attack you back(Unless they're Monks with same combo as you, just like Root).
This would make combos actually dangerous, but still random(As you need to start with random RTB), which I think is important thing so that they keep their "character".

Another idea is to include additional damage per SS spent. For example, each SS spent in a combo adds 50*(Raging Trifecta Blow Level) always-hit, def-ignoring, not increasable in any way damage. So with a full combo that would be Trifecta Blow (200%) => Quadruple Blow (400%) => Raging Thrust (540% + 500) => Glacier Fist (540% + 500) => Chain Crush Combo (1400% + 1000) for a total of 3080% + 2000 damage. This would keep with the "Spirit spheres always hit for 15" theme and would allow some interesting tactics.

Though with the Renewal system we might see combos making a comeback without any changes - If AGI would be actually worth it, and what would you say about one second unreducaeble GF cast time?

[Master Hung]

what would you say about one second unreducaeble GF cast time?I think that this + nerf on Soul Exale = less monks/champions using asura in WoE. It might be expensive to full your SP to use a powerfull asura.

[Zearth]

Never a problem for me. I just hunt boss monsters that drops YGG Drasil. Hit the hotel INN, and aim for some more.

[Jayed]

I used to gfist people in WoE with 75 DEX (1sec gfist) so it's not too problematic. Gfist seems near impossible in PVP though. would be far to easy to hide from or counter safety wall, etc.

[Master Hung]

I used to gfist people in WoE with 75 DEX (1sec gfist)And if this renewal really hits iRO, you will use asura at ~1.4s as you need high dex and high int to remove all reducible cast. Maybe ~1.4s to cast Zen too?

[Morrowind]

Why do you base your build on renewal? It can change thousands of times before it hits iRO, not to mention that It might not even get to iRO :s

[Jayed]

thread should be renamed "Fixing combo champ in numerous and debatable steps"

[uome]

pretty easy really....increase combo gloves base atk to 75-100 and make it a 25% bonus on combo damage