PDA

View Full Version : kRO: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread V


Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 21

Frost
06-11-2010, 06:48 AM
About the jRO vs kRO renewal i am not that worried about it, because on bRO official forum, the game staff people said that they talked with gravity about it and on bRO they will use the kRO version of renewal.

So i am assuming there will be 2 official versions of renewal, the kRO and the screwed one.. ops, i mean, jRO version :) ...

The real problem is wich one yours server will use it . I suggest you all start asking your server staff about it now to make sure renewal dont ruin your game completely with this jRO crazy changes.

But what if jRO enforces their renewal onto kRO's version as well? They we're all gonna be screwed. :colbert:

Hitori
06-11-2010, 06:51 AM
technically they would have to start over with every class to fit the proper skill modifiers with the different formulas... so renewal would come out finished in like... two more years?

Iruga Niisan
06-11-2010, 07:42 AM
Doddler : Actually I prefer the jRO formula for ATK. Weapon take a greater part of the dmg than the stat, ( that's for to make a clear differences between low level weapon with 4 slot hugely boosting overall dmg and a lvl 4 weapon that got no slot to boost dmg but give you serious advantage in dmg ).
It's far more logical and balanced that way, otherwise everybody keep stick to the +20 main gauche, +20 pike and +15 mes , etc.. and you got no benefit at all from lvl 4 weapon.

If you check the charts again you'll see jRO doesn't promote lvl 4 weapons; instead lvl 1-2 weapons; because damages of lvl 1 and 4 weapons in the same conditions are almost equal in jRO; however when you pump high STR, there will be a disaster, just like current RO, even more...

But kRO formula is promoting high atk weapons, since high STR gives soft atk, at the same time you can't ignore STR since it also effects eq. atk.

kRO atk formula is the best formula i've ever seen..

Couky
06-11-2010, 08:55 AM
About the jRO vs kRO renewal i am not that worried about it, because on bRO official forum, the game staff people said that they talked with gravity about it and on bRO they will use the kRO version of renewal.

So i am assuming there will be 2 official versions of renewal, the kRO and the screwed one.. ops, i mean, jRO version :) ...

The real problem is wich one yours server will use it . I suggest you all start asking your server staff about it now to make sure renewal dont ruin your game completely with this jRO crazy changes.

But what if jRO enforces their renewal onto kRO's version as well? They we're all gonna be screwed. :colbert:

Oh, god let's hope that won't happen! :o
It's probably one of the rare things I like about Kro RE.

fenryl
06-11-2010, 10:20 AM
kinda tired of people posting bs about jro .... hi guys, they ve been testing their version of renewal for a week or so... obviously the broken shit is gona get fixed, and hopefully they ll come up with a better version of renewal than kro did in the past year a half -_-.

Aisu
06-11-2010, 10:41 AM
I agree with the above post, it may be total crap atm but it's not like if kRo first week was good either :o

Hitori
06-11-2010, 11:00 AM
I was under the impression they were developing jro renewal for about a year now '-'

Prodigy
06-11-2010, 11:53 AM
About the jRO vs kRO renewal i am not that worried about it, because on bRO official forum, the game staff people said that they talked with gravity about it and on bRO they will use the kRO version of renewal.

So i am assuming there will be 2 official versions of renewal, the kRO and the screwed one.. ops, i mean, jRO version :) ...

The real problem is wich one yours server will use it . I suggest you all start asking your server staff about it now to make sure renewal dont ruin your game completely with this jRO crazy changes.

But what if jRO enforces their renewal onto kRO's version as well? They we're all gonna be screwed. :colbert:

Not to mention that if we have 2 versions, next year's RWC is going to be one big mess :stir:

Akin
06-11-2010, 02:34 PM
I was under the impression they were developing jro renewal for about a year now '-'

It's been almost a year since they got their first renewal update, yeah...

It's also been over 2 years since kRO started renewal.

So far my vote is completely with the kRO version. Even if jRO fixes the obvious things, I don't want to go back to instant cast (even if it's just 2nd class skills) and exponential growth stats.

The PRIMARY reason for renewal was to adjust formulas so that increasing the level and stat cap wouldn't completely break everything. If kRO decides to add a 4th class down the line or increase the level cap or stat cap again, jRO is going to have the same problem pre-renewal RO has now.

Prodigy
06-11-2010, 03:17 PM
The PRIMARY reason for renewal was to adjust formulas so that increasing the level and stat cap wouldn't completely break everything. If kRO decides to add a 4th class down the line or increase the level cap or stat cap again, jRO is going to have the same problem pre-renewal RO has now.

Yup, while I know that I shouldn't be saying this but, just look at any pserver with 3rd classes and preRenewal mechanics. Definitely super broken. . .

Nretep
06-11-2010, 03:40 PM
The PRIMARY reason for renewal was to adjust formulas so that increasing the level and stat cap wouldn't completely break everything. If kRO decides to add a 4th class down the line or increase the level cap or stat cap again, jRO is going to have the same problem pre-renewal RO has now.the problem is that they adjusted some formuals to be exponential again.

- aspd
was limited to 190, now 193 ... future classes will go up to 199 ? what then ?

- casttime
fully stat reduction reachable now (hard, but reachable)

- some skills
there're skills that are affected by the same stat as substat like Sorc skills. Increasing Int increases MAtk as well as the skillmofier, what makes the damage exponential again

if they wanted to increase the max stats again, they'd have to change some formulas again ...

Professor X
06-11-2010, 05:27 PM
Which is unlikely to happen, as I have been seen all this 2 years is that their politic (at least on kro) is to make an ammend in some aspect of the game (for example atk formula) and do not care about the rest unless the receive many complains.

Shield chain and shield boomerang are a good example of this, both skills got screwed with the new attack formula, but only shield chain got changed as there was enought people complaining about it, while shield boomerang remains screwed.

Clogon
06-11-2010, 05:41 PM
We get some nice info from the instance. Dunno what the Guardian's call does though.

AW We do kill the girl!!! :sob:

The instant's Story:

NOT! =P

Loki is looking for the missing Nidhog Guardian of Yggdrasil. You find her bewitched and berserk due the the sent of the flowers in the Dungeon.

"Kill" her unconscious and she will ask if this is punishment for abandoning her duties. Later in the dungeon, you will find her laying on the ground next to Loki. Turns out she only lost conscience and will be healed up in Mora. Once you arrive in Mora, she tells you her story: (Copied and pasted with some grammatical corrections from translation of korean friend)

"Thx for rescuing, she says, if it wasnt for us, she'd still be stuck in that maze hearing voices. she got corrupted by Morroc. When the connection with ygg and guardian was weakened, Morroc was able to break his own seal and come out and she was bewitched by Morroc. she realized Morroc was just using her for his own purpose and she betrayed Yggdrasil and she felt a greater loneliness than the all the years she served as a guardian of ygg."


14.1 Instance dungeon quest:

1) Talk to the NPC at the front to open the instance.

2) Talk to Loki inside to start the quest. If you don't talk to him ASAP, you will either be stuck there or never find the Dragon. Btw it is NOT Doddler in the screens.

3) Find and kill the Lost Dragon at a flower patch. It lost ~20-60k HP already. In the screen below.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Clogon/misc%20RO/screen026.jpg

4) Find and talk to Nighog and Loki at a flower patch.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Clogon/misc%20RO/screen027.jpg

5) Leave instance and go to the new village Mora.

6) Talk to Nighog and Loki to get reward.

Rewards:
# 2568 Loki's Muffler
Traces of old age can be seen in this red muffler. agi +1. skill "cross impact" dmg increased by 5%.
Can not be refined.
Defense: 10
Weight: 40
Requires Level: 100
Jobs: All jobs
Garmet
Account Bound

# 2858 Guardian's Pendant
black wing decoration, a strange power eminates from it, upon equip, [Guardian's Calling] skill is enabled.
Revelation 10: Accessories Armor: 0
Weight: 0
Requires Level: 70
Jobs: All jobs
Account Bound

The Guardian's Calling skill is bugged and your RO will freeze up since there is no Icon for it yet.

Hitori
06-11-2010, 08:21 PM
soo.... muffler is not a headgear, nor it gives us the cool scarf back to the GX sprite D=?

FlameTyrant
06-11-2010, 11:30 PM
apparently not T.T

Doddler
06-12-2010, 12:30 PM
random =Floor{DEX*(0.8+0. 2*Weapon_Lv)~Weapon_ATK*(0.4+Weapon_Lv*0. 1)} : (x)

random =Floor{DEX*(0.8+0. 2*Weapon_Lv)~Weapon_ATK*(1.4+Weapon_Lv*0. 1)} : (o)


it is close to real value.

Damn, if that's the real formula, that means that max weapon attack is 2.5x~2.8x of the weapons base attack, as opposed to korea's 1.2x, and pre-renewal's 1x. No wonder everyone is doing absurd damage on SakrayJ.

So it looks like Ragnagate is organizing a meeting with gravity again. I wish I could submit a question, I want to know if gravity abandoned the new monster AI. :(

TR...
06-12-2010, 01:24 PM
Erm...

All Hope is Gone - Slipknot


www.guildwars.com (http://www.guildwars.com)

Feral
06-12-2010, 01:39 PM
http://shop.mnhs.org/web_assets/bookofspam_f.jpg

Spam and quotes from crappy acts aside ;) I rather look forward to ragnagate getting another interrogation with Gravity.

I hope they ask them questions concerning jRO, job balance, design and the future of expanded jobs.

Doddler
06-12-2010, 04:36 PM
jRO recently had a maintenance that added fixed cast to asura, spiral pierce, shield chain, and acid bomb.

chap
06-12-2010, 04:51 PM
any info about how long are this fixed cast time?

rafah
06-12-2010, 04:56 PM
But they didn't fixed the dmg... right?

Lucentos
06-12-2010, 06:32 PM
jRO recently had a maintenance that added fixed cast to asura, spiral pierce, shield chain, and acid bomb.
Yeah. I`m guessing that jRO players are agree with us about absurdness of these skills with such cast times.

Nilaum
06-12-2010, 07:11 PM
So... Renewal will be Re-Renewaled? (do i write right?)

I'm getting really confused with all this mess, every weak Gravity ou Ghungho "fix" the fixed thigs that renewal fixed and are unfixed now...

annaquin
06-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Gravity is trying to fix retard things in first place...

Ok soon gonna be the WOE but hell... we are testing things here.

How to use a RG... It would be pointed out that Battle Chant ATKx2, Striking, etc... should be a tactical choice versus Reflect Dmg. However we just find out that it's hugely much more effective to use a kicked out to hit the RG. So actually the most effective way is to put all our long range fighter in the support guild buff and make them shoot the RG with neg DEF, neg Red and buff him with kaahi.

Compare to ATKx2,Striking,EDP,Food,Provoke cloak ambush RC used by GX, Reflect Dmg Ambush just overall everything.

Now the hilarous thing, Just to get thing absolutly wonderfull, there isn't that much skill that dmg both parties from your arsenal. However there is one, and that one deal 7k dmg, lexed RG 14k, negat DEF,neg red 20k, stack 6, 120k. Soooooo here is the great situation gravity created for tactic.

Sorcerer = IN
Genetic = IN
Ranger = IN
Soul Linkerx2= IN
Archibishop = IN
RG = IN
Rest = OUT

Since barely noone can get over 100k of HP... that end up the game.

Deses
06-13-2010, 02:50 AM
jRO may have been starting things just too badly, but at least, things are moving. Better start with pre-RE and balance things out often than start with renewal and hardly ever balance anything. Maybe...

Frost
06-13-2010, 03:04 AM
jRO recently had a maintenance that added fixed cast to asura, spiral pierce, shield chain, and acid bomb.

Lol. I can totally see it now.

jRO players: NO WE DON'T WANT FIXED CAST TIME.

Gungho releases renewal without fixed cast time.

jRO players: OMG GIVE US FIXED CAST TIME.

Gungho puts fixed cast time back.

@Doddler. Do you know whether jRO's fixed cast time means 20% of the cast time, or the whole cast time is fixed?

Clogon
06-13-2010, 06:43 AM
@Frost:
Actually Gungho just doesn't understand the players. Doddler said the jRO players mostly only wanted no fixed casting time on Sniper Skills. But Gungho interpreted it as for ALL 2nd skills

TeaRs
06-13-2010, 09:28 AM
@Frost:
Actually Gungho just doesn't understand the players. Doddler said the jRO players mostly only wanted no fixed casting time on Sniper Archer Skills. But Gungho interpreted it as for ALL 2nd skills
Fixed, Archer (sniper+gypsy/clown) overall. And yea they somehow stuffed up as usual.

Doddler
06-13-2010, 12:11 PM
Some more sakrayJ videos.

Testing videos:
190 aspd spear pally: http://zoome.jp/rrraaaggg/diary/109

Siege Videos:
Scholar: http://zoome.jp/yukinya/diary/29
Gypsy: http://zoome.jp/rulue/diary/151
Sniper: http://zoome.jp/nanari6/diary/134
Sniper Part 2: http://zoome.jp/nanari6/diary/135
ASPD SinX: http://zoome.jp/DoDoDoDoran/diary/23
Pally: http://zoome.jp/gokyurisan/diary/96

Edit:
Lord Knight: http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11049560

Lucentos
06-13-2010, 12:20 PM
Doddler, are these Videos from PreFixCasttime patch on jSak?
I LOL`d on Sniper taking out enemies with Double Strafes in WoE.

Doddler
06-13-2010, 01:00 PM
I don't know if they're after teh fixed cast time changes. Some of them might be.

jRO status magic attack formula is: INT + floor((floor(INT/8)^3)/75) + LUK/3

It's an interesting formula, but it doesn't produce high matk values until above 200 int.

The formula results in something like this for status magic attack:

http://www.mmobbs.com/uploader/files/8872.png

The legend is SakrayJ, PresentMin, PresentMax, KoreanR.

Here's another view:

http://www.mmobbs.com/uploader/files/8875.png

The legend is Present Max+15%, Present Min+15%, SakrayJ, SakrayJ with 145matk piercing staff and 64matk refine bonus.

Clogon
06-13-2010, 08:18 PM
@Neece:
Nice to see you again! But I disagree with you that it is because of Cultural differences that the players here disagree with Gungho and Gravity. I talk to the korean players quite a bit on RE and many of them have the same view as us.

Joule
06-13-2010, 09:43 PM
Some more sakrayJ videos.

Testing videos:
190 aspd spear pally: http://zoome.jp/rrraaaggg/diary/109


with those stat 190 aspd?:confused:

| Keough |
06-13-2010, 10:41 PM
How much ASPD a RK with same stats (118 agi 60 dex) get ???

TeaRs
06-13-2010, 11:41 PM
How much ASPD a RK with same stats (118 agi 60 dex) get ???
WIND had a pretty lengthy post on it with the aspd and draft formula, check the New ASPD discussion thread to find out more.
[Rune Knight real ASPD] / screen shot(click)
(http://ragnagate.milestory.com/board/mboard.asp?Action=view&strBoardID=screen4&intPage=3&intCategory=0&strSearchCategory=%7Cs_name%7Cs_subject%7C&strSearchWord=&intSeq=2230)AGI 110+17 / DEX 90+7 / two hand sword : ASPD 177
AGI 110+17 / DEX 90+7 / two hand sword / berserk potion : ASPD 181
AGI 110+17 / DEX 90+7 / two hand sword / berserk potion / two hand quiken : ASPD 188
AGI 110+17 / DEX 90+7 / two hand sword / berserk potion / +8 alcablinger : ASPD 185
AGI 110+17 / DEX 90+7 / two hand sword / berserk potion / +8 alcablinger / two hand quiken : ASPD 192

Inferno Nightblade
06-14-2010, 01:03 AM
@Frost:
Actually Gungho just doesn't understand the players. Doddler said the jRO players mostly only wanted no fixed casting time on Sniper Archer Skills. But Gungho interpreted it as for ALL 2nd skills
Fixed, Archer (sniper+gypsy/clown) overall. And yea they somehow stuffed up as usual.
...

...

ahahahahahahahahahaha

Actually, yeah, bias, but that's a version of Renewal I could get behind. I mean, most archer skills are breakable cast - and were devised when getting near-instant or actual instant cast was quite easily obtainable.

(And by "easily obtainable," I mean - the class has the built-in ability to reach instant or near that on its own or with basic outside buffing. I'm not talking about - like - Battle Chanting a high wizard or sticking a mjol on a chemist.)

But seriously, just...wow gungho wow. And...uh...now I kind of feel bad for brutally mocking jRO all these months. (At least their playerbase. Their developers need to be mocked even more ruthlessly.)

A bit upthread - Okay, I'm not quite following, but Doddler, how are you getting 2.5-2.8x weapon attack on SakrayJ? Reading WIND's formula, I'm getting 1.5-1.8x. I have a feeling I'm missing something, but I'm just not sure what.

That's still rather obscene, but not quite as absurd as nearly triple wATK.

Iruga Niisan
06-14-2010, 01:42 AM
Some more sakrayJ videos.

Testing videos:
190 aspd spear pally: http://zoome.jp/rrraaaggg/diary/109


with those stat 190 aspd?:confused:

Current aspd mode is too pathetic.. GX can't reach 190 even with 120 agi/dex.. (Unless gets superbuffs)

Clogon
06-14-2010, 01:58 AM
Well then changing topics, what do you guys thing about the new green shirt (I do not know the name of) and Loki's Muffler?

I think a +5 dex +3% atk of either equipment is really good for my Ranger and Bow Chaser! And the Shirt is tradable so you can sell it.

Edit:
Wow it can give Luk and STR too!

mikhail21
06-14-2010, 06:28 AM
@Clogon

Well, the Loki's muffler looks good when used PvM. PvP wise, I can't say though.

I was also wondering why not have not have GXs use berserk potions. I think that would boost their aspd. But then again, it's like drinking Poison bottle *sigh*

Farjax
06-14-2010, 09:58 AM
Edit:
the new city sells super potions!!! they heal 2x the amount of white potions for the same weight at 2.8k!

Is the new pot easily obtainable?
If there is no pot delay, does it mean we're approaching end of slims/mastelas?

The new white potions are weight 8, sell for 2800z from an NPC (can be discounted), and heal for 800 average (as opposed to 325 for white pot). They have a 3 second delay on usage though, so they aren't hugely useful for siege. The three potion types, red/yellow/white have a delay of 1/2/3 seconds.

why they waited 2 years to implement it? players have been suggesting it from the beggining of RO.

Global cooldown for pots could be implemented if it wasnt already...1s global CD its fair. and then add addtional cd depending the efficieny of the used pot.

I can see a new (old)RO... where combo monks/shura, battle chemist/genetics, mado mechs, aspd venom sin/gx etc WILL EXIST.

of course they can be found but they are too much underestimated in front of other builds....so you can choose any build possible in you class, you can choos your style, you can be your way and be a worthy ally or enemy only counting your skills.

why they waited 2 years to implement it? players have been suggesting it from the beggining of RO.

Global cooldown for pots could be implemented if it wasnt already...1s global CD its fair. and then add addtional cd depending the efficieny of the used pot.

I can see a new (old)RO... where combo monks/shura, battle chemist/genetics, mado mechs, aspd venom sin/gx etc WILL EXIST.

of course they can be found but they are too much underestimated in front of other builds....so you can choose any build possible in you class, you can choos your style, you can be your way and be a worthy ally or enemy only counting your skills.

veniality
06-14-2010, 10:19 AM
If there were cool downs on pots the entire system would have to be reworked. Mods and formulas were worked with pots in mind. Massive damage to go with massive recovery.

I am not fond of money burning through pots, but it is one of our only zeny sinks in the game, I would not look forward to the amount of zeny that would be flooding the market if all pots had cool downs.
Part of the appeal for RO is the fast paced environment. Fast casts, fast attacks, hitting hard and fast potting. If I want something slower I will play other games.

Just because recovery cool downs work on other games does not mean it would work here.
I do like having cool downs on newer pots though. They allow for larger healing in one pot, but the cool down prevents whites and slims from becoming obsolete.

Couky
06-14-2010, 10:36 AM
I am still against cooldown for every pots, though like some people said it would add some new game play for some class but I've had played on other mmorpgs and I disliked it.

Whenever it would be in pve or pvp it would be a nerf for the "nervous" gameplay of Ro and that's one thing I don't want to loose othewise, Ro would be become like any other mmorpgs.

Nilaum
06-14-2010, 11:02 AM
Well, i agree with CD for potions. But only for siege and pvp, for pvm in my opinion thats not necessary.

BTW, the CD work only on pots? because we still have ygg seed, just use 2 and you hp is full...

Hmm... maybe a masquarade giving more CD for potions would be nice, and even new aspd potions...

StarShadow
06-14-2010, 11:23 AM
Ygg seed and fruit should have a HP recovery amount limit IMO. Otherwise by spamming these two items peco classes are impossible/extremely hard to be taken down IMO.

D.

Farjax
06-14-2010, 11:35 AM
If there were cool downs on pots the entire system would have to be reworked. Mods and formulas were worked with pots in mind. Massive damage to go with massive recovery.

I am not fond of money burning through pots, but it is one of our only zeny sinks in the game, I would not look forward to the amount of zeny that would be flooding the market if all pots had cool downs.
Part of the appeal for RO is the fast paced environment. Fast casts, fast attacks, hitting hard and fast potting. If I want something slower I will play other games.

Just because recovery cool downs work on other games does not mean it would work here.
I do like having cool downs on newer pots though. They allow for larger healing in one pot, but the cool down prevents whites and slims from becoming obsolete.

I am still against cooldown for every pots, though like some people said it would add some new game play for some class but I've had played on other mmorpgs and I disliked it.

Whenever it would be in pve or pvp it would be a nerf for the "nervous" gameplay of Ro and that's one thing I don't want to loose othewise, Ro would be become like any other mmorpgs.

Why it would change so much the game? I'm not saying you are wrong but I don't agree. Maybe other RPGs follow it mechanics because it is from RPG mandaments. A professor or a bow class can tank many things because of it lack of restrictions.

A RPG is a game enjoyable because of its complexity. Fire owning Earth, Tricky shadow players/monsters that offers a hard fight or even a certainty of death with the tiny mistake. Others RPGs have 10s or even 1m(like WoW) or even dependant of a third factor.

Every action in RPGs has it restrictions... after 2-1 release with sages and chemist adding faster and different mechanics to WoEs and MvPs some restrictions were broken....pots were not so easy to get and then pretty easy but costy and Imortal Peco players were born. What were it consequences?

OHKO skills spam.:facepalm:

Will you think RO its boring because a class that not have healing skills no longer (aside tankers) will tank players/monsters because it have hundreds slim white potions?:o

Will you don't play anymore because your enemies don't spam pots neither you and so you will need play skill to win?:(

I get pissed of every time someone breaking through our defenses in the castle don't die unless a OHKO because their honey, whites etc.

you don't need to have high HP you need to have large amount pots.

The game will stay the same...just more fun.:rolleyes:


Ygg seed and fruit should have a HP recovery amount limit IMO. Otherwise by spamming these two items peco classes are impossible/extremely hard to be taken down IMO.

D.
Doesnt it encourages OHKO skills? agi builds, with the status imunity patch , have faith only on it
Magic classes will ne laughing OUT LOUD because their targets won't outpot their damage during their casts.

Prodigy
06-14-2010, 11:49 AM
I hope you realize how much work has to be done with the formulas if you want cd on all pots. We're talking about lowering damage modifiers, adding more skill cooldowns, and even increasing the delay between the damage interval of skills like PWave, Severe Rainstorm, etc.

As for the immortal peco class, doesn't anyone else think that Increase HP Recovery is to blame? I mean, come on, that skill adds a massive increase in potting efficiency to a class with already massive HP.

As for Yggberry/Yggseed, those items definitely need a cooldown, no questions asked.

Farjax
06-14-2010, 12:00 PM
1-2s cd will not demand much work.

I don't know if you have seen one of my posts in renewal suggest it were it too. I don't like damage output of 3rd classes. It is way too higher than previous jobs. It should increase as it were planned for TRans...20-30% in overral damage. and so leaving space for a probably 4th class or good equipments for 3rd.

3rd damage are already high with current equips, I wonder how it will be when good 3rd equips are released, which following some logic it should be stronger than current ones.

I mean, come on, that skill adds a massive increase in potting efficiency to a class with already massive HP. Doens't it only affect HP regen?

and RKs with vitality activation having 1,5x efficience with ranked slim pots can achieve same level than the weaker of these new recovery itens. spamming it like 4PPS (pots per second) its enough to tank 4 players.

it will not allow to magic classes to ignore their natural weakness because pots and warlock drain life will be much more desirable. I guess.
HoTs and greater heal will be more versatile, useful and strategic. more fun

Lucentos
06-14-2010, 12:03 PM
I`m only want Priest Healing was more useful in PvP/WoE.

veniality
06-14-2010, 12:32 PM
HP recovery effects pots as well. And it's not about just figuring out a number to tack onto pots, it's as Prod and I said, everything would need to be reworked to compensate for it.
Even if this was years ago before renewal, the mechanics would need to be changed a lot to compensate for no pot spamming. Mods would have to be changed, and because mods are changed, monsters stats would need to be changed. Then gear would have to be changed to compensate for reduction stacking due to lower mods. The list could go on. I like cool downs on super pots, but putting them onto regular pots completely changes the dynamics of the game.

There is already skill involved in playing even with spamming pots. Complaining of people running past defenses? Have a better defense. Try hit locking, try team play. Even without OHKO skills, if your guild works together people can easily be taken down. Pots are not to blame from people running through defenses. If there was a cool down, woe wouldn't be as interesting if no one EVER got past ANY defense.

Spamming pots, spamming skills, spamming items, fast paced, OHKO, that's a large part of what makes RO interesting. Cool downs mean toning down every other aspect of the game to compensate and majorly slows it down.

Edit: I do agree though that priests healing needs some sort of buff. Priests healing capability is very low compared to the costs of potting. Healing did not keep up with the rate of increase in HP pools.

Elie
06-14-2010, 12:59 PM
toning and slowing things down...isnt that Renewal?

Farjax
06-14-2010, 01:01 PM
renewal are there to change things. fixed part cast.new skills, new status,new aspd cap, etc. If i'm not mistaken people said in renewal beggining that 193 aspd were just crazy. when new skills/classes were released many thought thy could be OP because it possible uses. And here we are with 60% of the game changed and you are saying RO cannot be a RPG game because it already were it? Can't it be fixed?
You all seems to be stucked in a closed(imo wrong) system.

"don't touch the system. don't challange the system. join the system or die. You are talking like cops of that american movies."

There is already skill involved in playing even with spamming pots. Complaining of people running past defenses? Have a better defense. Try hit locking, try team play. Even without OHKO skills, if your guild works together people can easily be taken down. Pots are not to blame from people running through defenses. One, ONE?one player doing it aren't normal even with good equips. If this same player do it but together with a priest it will be the same? I don't think so.


one of RPGs pillars is the "equivalent change law" that thing that appears on that anime Full Metal Alchemist for a better explanation.

If you are good in something you are bad in other. You have to give up something to recieve another.

magicians give up defense to receive powerful ranged attacks. Knights gives up his life to protect their allies life and so their allies help them healing or destroying the enemy. things like this were applied AFAIK for all RPGs.

If there was a cool down, woe wouldn't be as interesting if no one EVER got past ANY defense. I answer you with your own words:try team play


toning and slowing things down...isnt that Renewal?
it will only slow down those he-man players with a nervous finger pressing the pot button.
i will not make you weaker.
you will only have this almost "immortality" status with a priest, which is their purpose. being invencible only with help. don't it sounds RPG?

doing so you can kill any class. and any class can kill you. the problem is some skills that it is too strong.

CrimsonFlame
06-14-2010, 01:21 PM
There's a simple solution here then. Don't mess with cool down of any recovery item, but instead make all recovery items have 1/2 the effect on any PvP-enabled map. This allows everyone to do their happy spam, but they aren't gaining the same benefit they would be on a PvM map.

There should also be a limit for speed pots to not function on woe maps as they are just as broken as recovery.

Edit: I do agree though that priests healing needs some sort of buff. Priests healing capability is very low compared to the costs of potting. Healing did not keep up with the rate of increase in HP pools.

That's one of the larger problems. Priests are vital to party-play but they are in an environment that has mechanics changing faster than they can. The less effective the priest-classes are, the more you need pot-spam. This is one of the factors that destroys party play.

TchuTchuKao
06-14-2010, 01:35 PM
Ygg seed and fruit should have a HP recovery amount limit IMO. Otherwise by spamming these two items peco classes are impossible/extremely hard to be taken down IMO.

D.
Not only peco class...
But this is what I Hate in RO...
Items healing 50~100% without restrictions or backslash...it's just ridiculous.

Also every word from Farjax is nothing more than the true.

Prodigy
06-14-2010, 01:53 PM
I mean, come on, that skill adds a massive increase in potting efficiency to a class with already massive HP. Doens't it only affect HP regen?
http://irowiki.org/wiki/Increase_HP_Recovery
I know this is preRenewal info, but I don't think the skill was changed in Renewal.

@Everyone, it's not that we're being close minded or refusing to challenge the system. It's just that, put a little more thought into it. Simply fixing pots won't magically solve all our problems. Plus, pot cooldowns have it's downsides too. Let's take RF Online for example (if you know the game). In that MMO, pots are burst heal type, and the stronger the pot, the longer the delay. With their system, it basically boils down to either 1)Being able to dish out damage faster than the pot can heal or 2)Being able to quickly kill your target before their pot cools down. The same holds true for other games like Flyff, Luna Online, and a bunch of other MMOs I've tried. And in those games, every useful PvP skill are basically burst damage skills and the game basically becomes who can dish out burst damage faster wins.

The only thing I hate about RO's potting system is how it makes heal obsolete in PvP/WoE which I think can be easily remedied. On iRO, I've noticed recently that Aid Condensed Potion has become really popular and I've seen biochems go from pure bombers to pure mass healers and do one hell of a good job at it. If only priests had the same healing capability. . .

Feral
06-14-2010, 03:22 PM
This has always been one of the stickier parts of RO though, the game is built around a PvM system, which requires mass treasure hunting, and consumable/ingredient accumulation. Jobs are also balanced around their effect in PvM settings, so when a player goes from using PvP as a way to blow off steam, to a "serious PvPer", balancing becomes much more complicated (which is why WoE has so many conditions). One of the unique things about RO, is that in the "war" setting (WoE, Guild War occurs in many MMORPGs, though) many conflicts don't end with complete extermination of one party, but rather one party retreating because they know that they cannot win. WoE uses PvM (the emperium, guardians, etc) as a catalyst to create a PvP setting without the objective being "destroy every playable character in sight".

If pots are removed or nerfed in PvP, it becomes a "spiking" game, which ends in "exterminate all opposition", and since RO is based on PvM play, only about half of the main cast are capable of high potency spiking.

To fix this, I think the necessary change isn't to change the fact that players can (and do) use consumables, but moderate which consumables are allowed in PvP, or have conditions on specific consumables (such as yggberry)

G.X.
06-14-2010, 03:22 PM
And here we are with 60% of the game changed and you are saying RO cannot be a RPG game because it already were it? Can't it be fixed?

unfortunately you are wrong, very wrong.

statuses - nothing changed, the old ones were just replaced by new 3rd class statuses.

damage - classes do more dmg but on the other hand have more hp, the outcome is the same, grav has just shifted power from sinx to RK.
Knights getting their revenge, being given to them by the hands of gravity...

aspd formula- just like before
reduction- just like before
def - just like before, now its bigger values but its the same

nothing has really changed but players being set back from max lvl to a lower one, so they must invest money/time into lvling again.

Its too obvious that renewal was just introduced to squeeze out money from vets and new players that are now not as far behind as they would have been without renewal.

Chilly
06-14-2010, 03:28 PM
fixed cast time and potion delays will slow the game down too much imo. one of the things that makes ro fun to me is that its so fast paced compared to other mmorpgs.

G.X.
06-14-2010, 03:31 PM
yeah its so much fun to rapidly push an F-key,

Feral
06-14-2010, 03:45 PM
And here we are with 60% of the game changed and you are saying RO cannot be a RPG game because it already were it? Can't it be fixed?

unfortunately you are wrong, very wrong.

statuses - nothing changed, the old ones were just replaced by new 3rd class statuses.

damage - classes do more dmg but on the other hand have more hp, the outcome is the same, grav has just shifted power from sinx to RK.
Knights getting their revenge by the hands of gravity...

aspd formula- just like before
reduction- just like before
def - just like before, now its bigger values but its the same

nothing has really changed but players being set back from max lvl back to a lower lvl, so they must invest money/time into lvling again.

Its too obvious that renewal was just introduced to squeeze out money from vets and new players that are now not as far behind as they would have been without renewal.

Actually I would say that this is very wrong.

ASPD has changed to promote melee jobs easily getting into the 1-1.5 hit per second without any relative trouble, but making sure that the 3+ hits per second range is only achievable through builds centered on it, requiring sacrifice of DEF (shields), and mass stats. As well as making sure the extremes of 190-193 are exceedingly difficult to get into. This puts most melee jobs in the 160-170 ASPD range, which is where they belong.

Old reductions are arguably a good thing

DEF has also changed to keep squishier jobs, squishy, and heavily armored jobs well defended because outside of Brinhyld, a normal player could get close to matching a Crusader/Paladin's DEF rating. The larger range allows Grav to not only weaken Brinhyld, and sets like Valkyrian and Odin's Blessing, but to make sure that light and heavy armor have distinctively different values.

REs purpose is as much to enrich the content of RO as it is to get people to return. You mustn't forget that Gravity wants to keep it's existing customers while earning new ones.

Also the "power shift" is still too early to tell since every few weeks another patch changes the pecking order.

Iruga Niisan
06-14-2010, 03:49 PM
(Off topic)

@Clogon

Well, the Loki's muffler looks good when used PvM. PvP wise, I can't say though.

I was also wondering why not have not have GXs use berserk potions. I think that would boost their aspd. But then again, it's like drinking Poison bottle *sigh*

what annoys me the most is sin class doesn't have either a aspd self-buff skill or aspd pots that gives cool aspd ~20%~ Lower GX's HP mode and give more aspd :cool:

Volband
06-14-2010, 03:50 PM
When renewal will be actually released, will Gravity reset the official servers or not? It would be kinda unfair if not, I think.

Farjax
06-14-2010, 04:11 PM
And here we are with 60% of the game changed and you are saying RO cannot be a RPG game because it already were it? Can't it be fixed?

unfortunately you are wrong, very wrong.

statuses - nothing changed, the old ones were just replaced by new 3rd class statuses.

damage - classes do more dmg but on the other hand have more hp, the outcome is the same, grav has just shifted power from sinx to RK.
Knights getting their revenge, being given to them by the hands of gravity...

aspd formula- just like before
reduction- just like before
def - just like before, now its bigger values but its the same

nothing has really changed but players being set back from max lvl to a lower one, so they must invest money/time into lvling again.

Its too obvious that renewal was just introduced to squeeze out money from vets and new players that are now not as far behind as they would have been without renewal.

I don't believe that someone that is following renewal patches said it.:facepalm:

(Off topic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikhail21
@Clogon

Well, the Loki's muffler looks good when used PvM. PvP wise, I can't say though.

I was also wondering why not have not have GXs use berserk potions. I think that would boost their aspd. But then again, it's like drinking Poison bottle *sigh*
what annoys me the most is sin class doesn't have either a aspd self-buff skill or aspd pots that gives cool aspd ~20%~ Lower GX's HP mode and give more aspd

I guess its because sins(gx) attacks with both hands virtually being faster than class with same aspd..for me the main feature of GX it is his flee. What should be done for GX is those skills that ignores flee. some way giving GX the ability to flee them or putting them hard do flee so only GX (maybe ranger) will flee them.

Prodigy
06-14-2010, 04:53 PM
When renewal will be actually released, will Gravity reset the official servers or not? It would be kinda unfair if not, I think.
kRO's main servers already have Renewal and they didn't reset it. In fact, a good majority of RO would quit if their respective servers were wiped (for whatever reason)

Clogon
06-14-2010, 05:11 PM
(Off topic)

what annoys me the most is sin class doesn't have either a aspd self-buff skill or aspd pots that gives cool aspd ~20%~ Lower GX's HP mode and give more aspd :cool:

I agree with you but will extend it to both branchs. The Thief Class though being the one who is considered the fastest Class have crappy ASPD since they don't have any ASPD increasing skills.

Doddler
06-14-2010, 06:07 PM
For those that are interested (not sure how many are, no one commented on the SakrayJ videos), but the SakrayJ attack formula is more or less completely resolved.

Unarmed

(StatusAtk * 2) + EquipAtkPlus * Race%c * Size%c * Element%c

Weapon Formula

FinalAttack = StatusAtk*2 + (①+②)* Race%c * Size%c * Element%c * SizeMod

① = (WeaponAtk + RandomPortion + EquipAtkPlus)

RandomPortion = Floor(DEX*(0.8+WeaponLv*0.2) ~ WeaponAtk*(1.4+WeaponLv*0.1))

② = Str + StrBonus

StrBonus = ( ([Str/10]^3) / 75)

-------------------------------

It's very similar to the Korean formula to be honest, only the random portion and weaponAtk bonus are different. It seems people aren't happy with it, inflation due to str is very high and when you consider max attack power, weaponAtk counts nearly 3 times, which causes abnormally high attack values. Many figure it's a bug or unintended that weapon attack is counted multiple times like this. In comparison to the Korean formula, the damage varies by a huge margin, but it seems gungho is very intent on keeping Dex as a limiting factor for minimum damage. Mastersmiths are happy though, they can maintain near absurd levels of damage with maximize power. I like that you can raise your maximum damage, but I don't like that low dex builds have such a huge spread for damage variance.

Overall though the biggest issue is simply that racial reductions don't work, I think SakrayJ will look a lot more balanced when they fix it. Magic attack though is seriously gimped though.

Oh, speaking of the jRO Magic attack formula, it's very similar to the Korean formula except status magic attack is calculated as follows:

StatusMATK = INT + ( ([INT/8]^3) / 75)

While the idea of an int bonus of that style is a good try, in practice it means that MATK values are lower than the Korean formula until about 150 int for high level characters (The formula generates no int bonus until at least 60 int, and it doesn't generate even noticeable numbers until 100+). Once you start hitting very high points of INT the MATK formula becomes crazy, but you'd need over 200 INT before you started doing decent damage. The MATK formula is probably one of the most complained about features though, and it's likely it will get changed. 'Semi-Caster' characters like shadow chasers and royal guards get kind of screwed by the requirement of super-high int to obtain reasonable base magic attack.

FlameTyrant
06-14-2010, 06:21 PM
but arent they going to modify that? i mean if people is not very happy with it they should modify it =/

Feral
06-14-2010, 06:42 PM
Well, DEX has always been good because it lowered the variation of damage output by dragging your damage towards it's higher ranges. But I do agree that even without a great amount of DEX the range shouldn't be something like 25-600ATK because of high STR and Weapons. On the other note though, DEX-based Assassins, Monks and Smiths should be much closer to their maximum than standard 40~ DEX builds, as that is why some players trade StrATK.

Inferno Nightblade
06-14-2010, 06:44 PM
With the older potions, though - the problem is, everyone and their mom is an ubertank. And it kind of messes around with things because it's impossible to wear people down, unless you use Critical Wounds.

(Speaking of which, are there any player skills that inflict that status now? If not, why?)

I kind of disagree with the entire RK thing, though, and saying that they're OMG OHPEE because they can recover like five billion through potions. That's...kind of the trademark of swordsman-type characters (knights and crusaders alike) - they excel at getting hit in the face.

That's part of the reason why people object so vociferously to the entire concept of royal guards as offensive characters - 90% of what a crusader's and paladin's skills are built around are getting hit in the face. (Oh yeah, and Jeebus Odin. And using the POWER OF ODIN when they do get hit in the face. And using JEEBUS POWER to hit other people in the face while hitting themselves in the face. Obviously, crusaders love their Jeebus. And pain.)

Getting on another tangent, I really do like the point made about RO balancing - damage-wise, it's really skewed more towards normal PvM situations. Think about it - monsters don't pot or spam heal (most of the time, though considering that everyone loev Rachel Sanc, that might not be so true nowadays). Monsters don't generally spam skills on you. And you can actually keep things under control - if you're a speed demon, it's often a matter of keeping as few things on you as possible while gunning down targets as fast as possible; if you're a meatshield, you can gather up a bunch of stuff and knock it down.

So, for example...like, the classic combo thing. Honestly, combos are pretty nice for taking out soft targets (which, in RE, is pretty much everything), and from what I've heard, the champ-level combo skills are pretty fucking devastating to begin with. (I've heard it said that you can Asura after them, but you probably don't need to.)

On the other hand, at high-level things, it begins to fall apart. You draw aggro in MvPing with combos, and - generally - that's a problem for a monk-class character. (Again, Asura can be free-cast anyway; however, the combo monk trades physical speed for different things, including cast speed (dex) and SP (int). Post-RE, it's possible to have both at high levels on an agi build sura, but durability - i.e., vit - has to suffer for it.) In PvP, players can just walk away, or counter the attacks (even monks have a skill that counters normal attacks).

So, while for just playing the game I'd probably go for the combo monk (hey, I like killing monsters, and - to be quite honest - I've always fancied agility), in the end the Asura build ends up doing the big-shot things better.

And this extends to pretty much most builds. Hindsight is fine, but pre-RE, support is better and post-RE, caster is better when it comes to sages. With my pet class - rogues - strength builds can do okay at some things (and honestly, I've had fun with my stalker PvM-wise, doing crazy shit that may have not been such a good idea but was still fun nonetheless), but dex/vit builds really shine at PvP (and that I will unequivocally admit - Inferno's triumphs in PvP are less numerous than his blunders). Post-RE, I don't think chasers become PvP killers (directly, anyway) - their role remains as it always has been (being really annoying), except with new and inventive ways of pissing people off. And the list goes on and on with most classes.

The expectations change sometimes, but the general construct doesn't, often. It's kind of like...PvP/MvP builds are like nuclear warheads, while PvM builds are more like service pistols. The service pistol is generally a hell of a lot less unwieldy and expensive to use, and it gets the job done in most situations. But sometimes, you need to drop a bomb on stuff to get your objective done.

(The problem, of course, is that RO is pretty much a bunch of walking fortresses. You could literally drop an atomic bomb on some characters and they'd barely even flinch.)

At any rate, the new pots seem to be quite awesome, especially for solo leveling. The only drawback is that it forces you to use them tactically, and if you get fucked, you're better off using regular whites (let alone ranked). If you stuck a cooldown on potions, I'd be a bit iffy about making it that long - 1s would probably be the high end considering how skills are.

Hitori
06-14-2010, 07:30 PM
regarding pots: how many pots can you spam per second though? is it that bad if there is a shy global cooldown of like 0.3 or 0.5 seconds to keep people from getting finger cramps while potting?
Do remember that there are programs out there that makes you able to pot like 10 time per second... if you can heal over 1k per pot, that means opposing dps needs to be over 10k in order to represent danger to a player using this, and shy cooldown can keep this in check

Feral
06-14-2010, 07:37 PM
Inferno -
That's why I LIKE Renewal xD Suras have the upgraded Champ combo, a handful of manual spamalots to break face with, and the HP to be able to survive high level monsters (and most mid-low level MVPs with the right consumables, or high end MVPs with a fully loaded party) without having to use GFist or become a sandbag. The problem now, is since all characters are up to snuff for endgame monster slaying, there needs to be something else to whine about. Granted, I absolutely agree that GoH and GFist need to get reworked as far as damage output goes (though I also think GoH should go back to being the Rakshasa Phoenix Destruction Fist, not the Cut Barrel Shotgun Blast to the Knee Caps), and perhaps Tiger Cannon needs to lose the full SP drain effect (but it's still the OMG-BURST!~ combo builds needed).

Monk love aside, most of the problems I've seen with RE are more cerebral than statistic. Most posters probably do not remember this, but before Trans, Knights were the best job for "oh hai dar! -smack-" style fighting. Assassins actually had to make an effort to be stealth against both aggresive monsters, and players. Smiths were less bent on spamming the same skill and more worried about trying to have a strong combination of skill usage (mainly to stun), and melee attack. There was no inferior Monk because when they punched, it hurt, when they threw spirits at people, it hurt, when they threw away their SP bar because they wanted to make the screen rattle... it hurt, when they chased Knights, Crusaders, Assassins and Smiths around because they wanted to play a game of Occult Pattycake, it hurt. Alchemists summoned plants, and bombs, but when they chucked stuff at you, it hurt, but you didn't see Rune Midgardian brains sprayed all over the place, and monsters actually took it on the chin rather well. Lastly, Hunters were difficult to outpot, and were coincidentally the only job which could solo just about anywhere. Point being, this is seems to be where RO is headed back towards because Gravity associates the loss of player interest to many of the changes to Trans-class, so after RE if we see a highly nerfed (in comparison to Trans) "Advanced 3rd Class", don't be surprised, but maybe next time the monsters they create to challenge the upgrades won't account for half of the game content and eat hellflies with their wheaties, and the skills alotted won't rework job linearity.

Granted RE has lots of bugs, and a few small formula problems .____. but those get adjusted every few weeks, so I'm not going to freak out suddenly traps start working like they are supposed to, and the bow formula is over-modified to make Double Strafe do more than Overbrand, because Grav will probably fix it within 2 months time.

Clogon
06-14-2010, 07:38 PM
@Doddler:
Thanks for the formulas. Though I like the fact that it helps my Ranger that the Formula is exponential but using a cubic formula just makes jRO RE impossible to implement more equipment. The main reason why current RO is so limited is because of a Quadratic formula. Don't they see that a Cubic one is even worst? Lets look at the high STR an RK can get with double Meg and reliable buffs.

120 base + 3 job +30 rune + 4 from other equipments + 140 from Meg +10 bless +10 normal food + 20 genetic food +13 Harmonize = 350

Using that formula the bonus will be

350+(350/10)^3/75=921.67

With a +9 Glorious Claymore (relatively easy to get with the new cash ores), the damage from w.atk will be

{921.67 str bonus +220 w.atk + 9*7 refine + [(1+14*5)/2=35.5] over refine + [220*(1.4+0.4)=396] Max Power via Magic Mushroom}*{100% + 75% Glorious Claymore + [(9-3)^2=36%] Slaughter lv2} = 3452.32 e.atk+w.atk

S.atk is the same as kRO right? So 350 str, 130 dex (77 base+ job and 53 from Bless, Food and Harmonize) and 18 (5 base+job and 13 from harmonize luk lvl 150 RK will have

150/4+350+130/5+6/3=417.5 s.atk

Total damage will be

417.5*2+3452.32=4287.32 per hit.

BB will do 42k

Sonic Wave will do 54k

Ignition Break with fire endow will do 96k

Storm Blast with 120 Int (67 base+job + 53 from Blessing+food+Harmonize) will do 171k


This is not even looking at the classes with even higher Skill mods like RG, Genetic or Sura.

Edit:
Since you stated that the STR bonus is affected by % cards, I will assume that it is e.atk and there for will be quadrupled by EDP.

TchuTchuKao
06-14-2010, 07:46 PM
-.-

So this is why jRO want racial like pre-renewal...
So a player with ck+cranial+f.beret.

will take:
21k from BB
27k from S.Wave
48k from IB
85,5k from Storm Blast...

High numbers..but still is with 2 belts...

wonder what is the dmg from a Sura's G.Fist.

Lucentos
06-14-2010, 07:57 PM
I`m guessing that 3rd jobs testing will be hellavua of fun of overdamage in jRO testing.

Clogon
06-14-2010, 08:08 PM
@TchuTchuKao:
Without the 2 Belts, they will do:

210 + (21^3)/75 =333.48

{333.48 str bonus +220 w.atk + 9*7 refine + [(1+14*5)/2=35.5] over refine + [220*(1.4+0.4)=396] Max Power via Magic Mushroom}*{100% + 75% Glorious Claymore + [(9-3)^2=36%] Slaughter lv2} = 2211.24 e.atk+w.atk

150/4+350+130/5+6/3=417.5 s.atk

417.5*2+2211.24=3046.23

That's only a 25% damage loss and will still do hell of a lot more damage than the current kRO formulas. Str Bonus isn't the only problem but the 2.8*w.atk with Max Power as well!

Prodigy
06-14-2010, 08:20 PM
I think that most RO servers are entering an age where one can expect at least 1-2 double megged chars (which is an understatement for other servers) in the opposing guild during massive WoEs. I hope that both kRO and jRO realize this and that they should consider just how much the damage spikes up with double meg.

Clogon
06-14-2010, 08:54 PM
@Prodigy:
That is actually very difficult to do. As Megs aren't the only problem.

kRO tried to fix the problems of Megs and low lvl weapons by making STR increase w.atk linearly. But this made all of the hard earned low lvl monster specific weapons useless. jRO tried to remedy kRO's flaws by reintroducing exponential Growth and giving a 2.8*w.atk to the formula to create a balance between low level weapons with high slots and high level weapons with low slots. But this creates an incredible imbalance with high attack high level weapons with high slots or mods like the Twien Edge Swords, Zerphere[3] and Glorious Weapons.

See Double Meg with a +10 tripple Bloody boned Pike isn't as OP as the GLorious Claymore.

350+(350/10)^3/75=921.67



{921.67 str bonus +60 w.atk + 10*2 refine + [(1+3*3)/2=5] over refine + [60*(1.4+0.1)=90] Max Power via Magic Mushroom}*{1.84} = 2017.87 e.atk+w.atk


You can see that the Glorious Claymore does 70% more damage than the Pike!

Hitori
06-14-2010, 09:03 PM
so... what can we expect from this formula and a dual wielding GX with a main gauche on his left hand, a proper dagger or sword and no edp?

Clogon
06-14-2010, 09:06 PM
Expect A LOT!!!

Edit: Just for the hell of it:

+9 Glorious Flamberge and quadruple boned main gauche (Best combination unless you get a high upgraded Flamberges with high updraged Gladius and include def in the calculations) 320% damage to players

with 120 base + 6 job + 140 meg + 1 from other equips + 53 buffs and food = 320 STR

320 + 32^3/75 = 756.9

{756.9 str bonus + 130 w.atk + 9*7 refine + [(1+14*5)/2=35.5] over refine + [130*(1.4+0.4)=234] Max Power via Magic Mushroom}*{320%} = 3902.08 w.atk + e.atk

150/4+320+130/5+6/3= 387.5 s.atk

387.5 s.atk *2 + 3902.08 w.atk + e.atk = 4677.08

If we include EDP and my fair Assumption that the STR bonus is e.atk and not w.atk, you get:

{756.9 str bonus*4 edp + 130 w.atk*5 edp + 9*7 refine*5 edp + [(1+14*5)/2=35.5] over refine *5 edp + [130*(1.4+0.4)=234] Max Power via Magic Mushroom *5 edp }*{320%} = 17088.32 w.atk + e.atk

387.5 s.atk *2 + 17088.32 w.atk + e.atk = 17863.32 =O

That's 125k with CI...

Hitori
06-14-2010, 09:15 PM
something just hit me! soul destroyer on that video dealt 10k on targets with heavy reduction probably because of how it's affected by the cards.... or those kvm swords methinks

Lucentos
06-14-2010, 09:16 PM
Yeah, jRO formula is disasterous for Godlike and High Atk-High slot weapon users.

Hitori
06-14-2010, 09:21 PM
anyone wanna bet they'll announce the testing of this formula on sakray tomorrow?

Clogon
06-14-2010, 09:26 PM
Look at my edit above!

TchuTchuKao
06-14-2010, 09:29 PM
Expect A LOT!!!

Edit: Just for the hell of it:

+9 Glorious Flamberge and quadruple boned main gauche (Best combination unless you get a high upgraded Flamberges with high updraged Gladius and include def in the calculations) 320% damage to players

with 120 base + 6 job + 140 meg + 1 from other equips + 53 buffs and food = 320 STR

320 + 32^3/75 = 756.9

{756.9 str bonus + 130 w.atk + 9*7 refine + [(1+14*5)/2=35.5] over refine + [130*(1.4+0.4)=234] Max Power via Magic Mushroom}*{320%} = 3902.08 w.atk + e.atk

150/4+320+130/5+6/3= 387.5 s.atk

387.5 s.atk *2 + 3902.08 w.atk + e.atk = 4677.08

If we include EDP and my fair Assumption that the STR bonus is e.atk and not w.atk, you get:

{756.9 str bonus*4 edp + 130 w.atk*5 edp + 9*7 refine*5 edp + [(1+14*5)/2=35.5] over refine *5 edp + [130*(1.4+0.4)=234] Max Power via Magic Mushroom *5 edp }*{320%} = 17088.32 w.atk + e.atk

387.5 s.atk *2 + 17088.32 w.atk + e.atk = 17863.32 =O

That's 125k with CI...
Japaneses want the one move+one death avaible.

Clogon
06-14-2010, 09:32 PM
@TchuTchuKao:
I don't think they want that. It is just that they did not think about high level weapons with high mods. Again it is very tough to satisfy everyone without creating imbalance.

Doddler
06-14-2010, 10:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7s7Zs-PQjc&hd=1

It's been about 10 months since they first started the AI test at desert wolves. I'm beginning to think they've abandoned it. I first thought they were taking their time but there have been both 13.3 and 14.1 without any new sighting of the new AI features. I wish they would do more with it, because it seemed to be really cool.

TchuTchuKao
06-14-2010, 10:08 PM
Here is the deal...
Gravity don't need to listen the players to create balance,but think.
If they hear that player that want things like pre-renewal but with 3rd classes...I mean:
(based in what I heard in game.)
Sinx player:Gravity screwed up with Ragnarok I am leaving when they implement Renewal here.Guillotines/sinx will be not able to kil,lI cant tank anymore...
If I want a balanced game I will play chess
(What he mean?)
Gravity made them a balanced class and fixed EDP,made them fight in order to kill,changed Cranial thing...
I want one hit people and be able to stand everyone.

If Gravity hear these type of people,wich isn't only here in my country that they exist, the game will be great...to them,but not to everyone.
And since they are many...and people who actualy want a balanced game are few,the right thing to do is to not listen the players.

Also what the meaning for High atk weapons if low atk weapons 4 sloted deals higher dmg?
Gravity don't need to change this...high atk weapon=more dmg than low atk weapons.

G.X.
06-14-2010, 10:38 PM
I don't believe that someone that is following renewal patches said it.:facepalm:


could you please tell me where exactly i am wrong.
for me renewal feels just like pre-renewal, just with an even worse balancing.

---
@chu: i dont care about 1-hit kills that much, it totally doesnt matter actually. what i want is some interesting pvp strategies that are not retarded. EDP + GT was such a thing. edp + SB and SD are effective but retarded in my opinion.

TchuTchuKao
06-14-2010, 10:43 PM
Status,def and ASPD are completly diferent from pre-renewal.

G.X.
06-14-2010, 11:01 PM
they are not...

aspd:
the same classes can reach max aspd,
agi is still less important than aspd-skills

who cares if the formula changed when the end result is the same just with the classes getting a few more aspd.

def:
i dont see what should have changed here, instead of 100=100% equipdef its now 580=100%. even reductions work the same as before.

statuses:
the old statuses are now completely useless because of immunity to them,
so there are now just some other more powerful statuses taking their place.
for example deep sleep replaces sleep.

Doddler
06-15-2010, 12:19 AM
http://www.ragnarokonline.jp/news/event/cp_3rdclasses/

Ready or not, here it comes. jRO has begun it's campaign for the 3rd job update.

Sousuke_Sagara
06-15-2010, 12:34 AM
they are not...

aspd:
the same classes can reach max aspd,
agi is still less important than aspd-skills

Only classes with % ASPD skills can get close to Max ASPD, and thats combined with Stats. Pre Renewal, a 1 Agi LK could reach 189 ~ 190 ASPD easily. On Renewal, My RK Needs at least 120 Agi to reach 193 ASPD, and thats with a +10 Alcanbringer.

who cares if the formula changed when the end result is the same just with the classes getting a few more aspd.

def:
i dont see what should have changed here, instead of 100=100% equipdef its now 580=100%. even reductions work the same as before.

New Formula makes Almost Impossible to get 100% dmg reduction, actually only a few jobs gonna reach more than 50%.

statuses:
the old statuses are now completely useless because of immunity to them,
so there are now just some other more powerful statuses taking their place.
for example deep sleep replaces sleep.

I can agree with this, keeping immunitys at 100 of each stat is dumb with the amount of stats a 3rd can reach. They do really need to increase it to at least... 125 ~ 150

^

TchuTchuKao
06-15-2010, 12:38 AM
Again...
(hope that Frost don't deleted my message.)
@G.X. (http://forums.irowiki.org/member.php?u=13007)
They changed!
No one cares if you see it the same way as before,the way it is calculated changed so it is diferent.If 1 more or less aspd point are added,it's not the same.

Skipper
06-15-2010, 01:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7s7Zs-PQjc&hd=1

It's been about 10 months since they first started the AI test at desert wolves. I'm beginning to think they've abandoned it. I first thought they were taking their time but there have been both 13.3 and 14.1 without any new sighting of the new AI features. I wish they would do more with it, because it seemed to be really cool.

Wow this is by far the most exciting thing I've seen in renewal. I hope they tweak around with it more and INCLUDE it in renewal. This makes PvM a heck of a lot more fun and should promote more partying on mob-dungeons like Scaraba Hole, Juperos, etc.

Feral
06-15-2010, 01:38 AM
xD jRO's Renewal art is easier on the eyes than that atrocious half-arse stuff on the kRO site .___. The super distortion makes it more bareable I suppose though I rather like the nerfarious look on the Ferus.

crow_mw
06-15-2010, 03:11 AM
It is interesting that the j formula changed the effect of STR so that instead of multiplying weapon ATK it is added as a separate factor. Also the overupgrade bonus is not included in the formula provided by Doddler. This is probably a step away from favoring high ATK weapons over low atk, many slots weapons.

Lucentos
06-15-2010, 03:40 AM
Tomorrow`s patch mostly small fixes ones, however ASPD Rune fix will be quite sexy for ASPD Rune Knight.

annaquin
06-15-2010, 03:52 AM
But ok if you want to be an ignorant player...
This is a call for a flame. It's no need.This is why your post has been deleted plus the attack below is really nasty and irrelevant.

Renewal is renewal, althought the change from Alpha swordman and thief to beta mage,acolyte, archer was great, gravity didn't have to change totally the game system. Same goes for 2nd class , then gravity added advanced class and thing getting more and more difficult for fair challenge.
What I mean by fair fight is it shouldn't be difficult for any player to dogfight another class, yet the game system make hunter aspd far unfair for blacksmith repelled forever. Same goes for alchemist versus wizard, etc...

By introducting new 3rd class with stat getting over 300 for ranger , gravity can't use the same exponential formula. To answer to most people Nretep went all the trouble to create a renewal calculator based on kRO sakray, if you are all keep saying it's easy to put 100 to all stats, please do, I want to see the results of your build.

3rd class have all load of HP, your choice to be immune or powerfull, but don't say things that you can become powerfull and immune to all stats. Plus some class don't want to get over VIT 80 or LUK 80. Status in renewal is honestly pleasant. First status most people want to defend is White imprison then Stone curse and obviously Diamond Dust and Stun. But Stone curse and White Imprison are much more powerfull status now than Stun, Dragon Breath will deal 150% more dmg and that's the dmg you don't want to tank at all, then White Imprison Lex+SD ghost is the other dmg you don't want to tank as well. Compare to stun status that only stuck for seconds, changed element earth 1 or ghost 5 ( I am guessing we should call it ghost 5 ) is one a hell other level.

But again experiences and personnals feeling shouldn't drive you to call other ignorant.

doddler: Looks like samurai gonna be dual hands
http://www.onlinegamer.jp/news/15000/image/38/

Iruga Niisan
06-15-2010, 04:16 AM
http://www.ragnarokonline.jp/news/event/cp_3rdclasses/

Ready or not, here it comes. jRO has begun it's campaign for the 3rd job update.

This is a disaster :facepalm:

@Sosuke and Tchutch.

I think G.X. is right on that point what he told.Maybe renewal is different from pre-renewal theoretically, however results are ~the same~, Gravity possibly promoted those chars unintended, but they did.On topic:

@Sosuke:RK, Mec., RG those who have %aspd skills own the game again.Either with agi or not.Practically they'll have the highest aspd in any condition, and who said a RK can't invest on agi??

2) Def. has the same logic either, just like pre-re.Classes who can wear high def. equips (obviously RK and RG followed by Mec.) will get an huge benefit.

3) Statuses also have just slight changes, instead of 100 vit for immunity; people will have to seperate it, however; since one of the biggest problems is being frozen, most people will invest 100 int for getting freedom to their armors.I can't imagine a RK with tao gunka.Owned, oder so?

I repeat: Unfortunately renewal has been a worse upgrade to pre-renewal instead of being a renewal.The gap between classes is even more than pre-renewal.jRO has the biggest responsibility on this.kRO at least tried their best.

I'm expecting so many updates after renewal hits all servers..

Joule
06-15-2010, 04:44 AM
@Doddler, Yeah the AI monster was a great Idea as Anti-mob. Not for people to mob 1000 monster. But i can imagine this could be a problem with MVP. Imagine such an AI with Valkyrie. Hell.....

About tomorrow#s patch, how long do they want to boost RK? enough is enough.

About Jro. It seems, we will definitively have more than 1 version of renewal... i have problem to accept it.

No WOE video this week?

Volband
06-15-2010, 04:45 AM
kRO's main servers already have Renewal and they didn't reset it. In fact, a good majority of RO would quit if their respective servers were wiped (for whatever reason)
Ooh, I don't see te logic in that one. Basically, Gravity's aim is to get new players and also, get back some of the "retired ones" as well.

The latter may be happy that they can continue the game with their old, dusty chars but I think they wouldn't mind start it all over, because it's a different game now.

As for the new players, If I'd be about to taste this new Ragnarok I would definetly feel uncomfortable with the fact, that many players have their levels/items/etc achieved in (with a bit of an exaggeration) a whole different game. I don't see how is that fair.

The only drawback would be that people would lost their stuff which they've earned via donations (so basically their money).

teh_hungry_cavalry
06-15-2010, 05:19 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/2b5sow.jpg
This captivated me. I wanna have a headgear like that on my Paladin!!

Couky
06-15-2010, 05:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7s7Zs-PQjc&hd=1

It's been about 10 months since they first started the AI test at desert wolves. I'm beginning to think they've abandoned it. I first thought they were taking their time but there have been both 13.3 and 14.1 without any new sighting of the new AI features. I wish they would do more with it, because it seemed to be really cool.

Wow this is by far the most exciting thing I've seen in renewal. I hope they tweak around with it more and INCLUDE it in renewal. This makes PvM a heck of a lot more fun and should promote more partying on mob-dungeons like Scaraba Hole, Juperos, etc.
That's really a nice thing!
I hope they will continue it one day because it looks really promising and exiting :)

Doddler
06-15-2010, 05:40 AM
jRO is starting to test 3rd job now. The monster and leveling balance of renewal as expected is a mess. Here's the exp curve, roughly:

http://www.mmobbs.com/uploader/files/8897.jpg

Couky
06-15-2010, 05:50 AM
Can you tell us please the legend / names of the colors, please ?
though, at first glance that's quite frightening!

Hitori
06-15-2010, 06:07 AM
I'm guessing the green snake is jro renewal exp.... that looks... weird, to say the least

so for today's common patches we have: a correction to weapon blocking about attacks that don't miss, a correction to the aspd rune(did they finally made this work?)

sakray only: rangers mines formulas are being changed, could this be the start of 3-1 rebalance?

that item you get from loki may actually have it's skill usable now, Defender's call or something

Joule
06-15-2010, 06:29 AM
Can you tell us please the legend / names of the colors, please ?
though, at first glance that's quite frightening!

LOOK
red -1rst Job 2nd Job
blue transcendant
Green 3rd Job

Kuran
06-15-2010, 07:00 AM
sakray only: rangers mines formulas are being changed, could this be the start of 3-1 rebalance?
rangers never got a balance patch, let alone a rebalance, lol.

TR...
06-15-2010, 07:19 AM
A cool idea to suras:

Update of all of their skills to have a adjustable cast depending on the occasion...

Something like, to asura someone, you start casting, then the cast begun, the maximum cast is 5 seconds, if you cast for 5 seconds you deal 100% damage. If you cast for 2,5 seconds, you deal 50% of the damage, if you cast for 1 second 20% damage, you'll have less power depending on the time that you take to cast the skill


To unleash the asura strike you just press the asura skill again while its casting...

It would be VERY nice to suras, this would balance everything in the class... Why? if you get caugh by Cursed Circle, the sura can prepare his punch with almost full power

This way you can

Something like the skills needs

Farjax
06-15-2010, 07:25 AM
they are not...

aspd:
the same classes can reach max aspd,
agi is still less important than aspd-skills

who cares if the formula changed when the end result is the same just with the classes getting a few more aspd.

def:
i dont see what should have changed here, instead of 100=100% equipdef its now 580=100%. even reductions work the same as before.

statuses:
the old statuses are now completely useless because of immunity to them,
so there are now just some other more powerful statuses taking their place.
for example deep sleep replaces sleep.

where you are wrong? could be...all that I highlighted?
gravity didn't change what you(classes/jobs) are or what you do BUT how you do it. What were unbalanced in renewal wasn't WHAT but HOW.

how easy one class could achieve outrageous damage or other class could tank easily when they were not supposed to do it.


I'm really distturbed after read what you said about def....
WTF!!!!! you just saying they are the same because they have a cap? 100 = 580?

WHY IT IS 580? DO YOU KNOW?

def its not linear 290 def is not 50% reduction and equips can have a def amount correspondent to their jobs...

who cares if the formula changed when the end result is the same just with the classes getting a few more aspd.

so you are saying that its the same and its not the same?
aspd have a new cap, people can not have 184+ aspd without AGI. reaching 190+ is for those who really aimed for it with buffs and aspd equips.
some balance between skillers and ctrlers were established, some.

Some of them gets apsd easier, of course beacuse its role in the game as GX, Rangers. IMO RKs should not reach 193 in no conditions. thats GX role.

you are not saying reasonable things...
you said status didn't chagne and then say there are new status. Isn't it a CHANGE?

old status got resistance by character points status...this is little said but as we know many other devastating status...no more discussion

Caracol
06-15-2010, 07:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7s7Zs-PQjc&hd=1

It's been about 10 months since they first started the AI test at desert wolves. I'm beginning to think they've abandoned it. I first thought they were taking their time but there have been both 13.3 and 14.1 without any new sighting of the new AI features. I wish they would do more with it, because it seemed to be really cool.

Wow this is by far the most exciting thing I've seen in renewal. I hope they tweak around with it more and INCLUDE it in renewal. This makes PvM a heck of a lot more fun and should promote more partying on mob-dungeons like Scaraba Hole, Juperos, etc.I was going to say exactly the same! This is so awesome!
Thanks Doodler!

http://i50.tinypic.com/2b5sow.jpg
This captivated me. I wanna have a headgear like that on my Paladin!!Me too!

Feral
06-15-2010, 07:32 AM
A cool idea to suras:

Update of all of their skills to have a adjustable cast depending on the occasion...

Something like, to asura someone, you start casting, then the cast begun, the maximum cast is 5 seconds, if you cast for 5 seconds you deal 100% damage. If you cast for 2,5 seconds, you deal 50% of the damage, if you cast for 1 second 20% damage, you'll have less power depending on the time that you take to cast the skill


To unleash the asura strike you just press the asura skill again while its casting...

It would be VERY nice to suras, this would balance everything in the class... Why? if you get caugh by Cursed Circle, the sura can prepare his punch with almost full power

This way you can

Something like the skills needs

:rolleyes: Nothing that complex, just a /10 after the final damage will do for Fist. Take a 0 off of the end, and it's a skill to build towards, not around.

annaquin
06-15-2010, 07:44 AM
Doddler I saw that you did the dragon on your own... grats :D , pretty suicidal , but nice.

To add things, sakray is exp x 10, so this graph show that RO is all about survival at all cost ( I always carry butter fly and fly wing :P ), I can give you a tip, the map in juperos 2.5 is protected again exp loss. This is where we are spamming or transmo.

TR...
06-15-2010, 08:08 AM
I mean shura being a chargeable class, like you take more time, you do more damage, you take less time, you deal less damage...

This will balance suras.
Increase their play skill.
Increase the role play

And by the way combo performances dont have cast, so you will have 100% power of asura strike in the combo...

Couky
06-15-2010, 08:20 AM
Can you tell us please the legend / names of the colors, please ?
though, at first glance that's quite frightening!

LOOK
red -1rst Job 2nd Job
blue transcendant
Green 3rd Job

Thank you.

The exp at the left, is it Million exp or exp ratio ?

Lucentos
06-15-2010, 08:37 AM
3rd jobs for kRO seems have prefix Renewal exp.

Anchahmancha Medlin
06-15-2010, 08:55 AM
Can you tell us please the legend / names of the colors, please ?
though, at first glance that's quite frightening!

LOOK
red -1rst Job 2nd Job
blue transcendant
Green 3rd Job

Thank you.

The exp at the left, is it Million exp or exp ratio ?
You can see at the top 1,8*10^9, 10^9=1000000000.

Feral
06-15-2010, 09:17 AM
I mean shura being a chargeable class, like you take more time, you do more damage, you take less time, you deal less damage...

This will balance suras.
Increase their play skill.
Increase the role play

And by the way combo performances dont have cast, so you will have 100% power of asura strike in the combo...

This is not to insult your intelligence or make any libel about you, but there's nothing lacking of skill in the Monk/Champion/Sura's design. But it is the lack of moderation which has given this effect.

Originally, Guillotine Fist was a pain to prepare and was used at different levels by different players, with different builds in mind. GFist wasn't at this time an omniscient skill, but a costly face smasher which gave the squishy melee character an edge. There was the manual cast, which was impractical and dangerous, but instantaneous. There was the Root cast, which had the same power as the manual cast, but under safer conditions. And finally there was the tandum cast, which required the caster to use the three combo skills, and a well timed GFist, for use without any cast time at all.

Champion's GFist, in design was supposed to be sped up. The manual cast, and the Root cast were made much quicker by the Zen skill. There was also a way to manually obtain the instant GFist by using Root>Raging Quadruple Blow>Raging Thrust>Chain Crush Combo. However, casting in tandum with combos became frivilous when Champions became able to obtain large amounts of SP and Priests with Lex Aeterna. Because of this, it has been suggested that Lex Aeterna not work with Guillotine Fist, and the only "amplified" version of the skill should come from the use of a combo leading into it. Others have suggested that the skill no longer be available for manual casting.

Fast forward to RE. The same problem is occuring with the skill "Gate of Hell" which not only has a similar power to GFist's but the same design flaw. Gate of Hell appears to be a sped up mixture of Throw Spirit Spheres and Guillotine Fist, and by all means should be absolutely devastating when cast as a follow up to Dragon Combo + Fallen Empire, but once again, the tandum cast has become frivilous because the manual cast is strong enough on it's own, and even more dangerous with the Lex Aeterna spell.

Farjax
06-15-2010, 09:35 AM
@TR

shuras definately won't like it. THey will say the same as RKs said at the begginig if renewal:
"WTF! were are spiritual mages? warlocks now uses spheres and we have cast?"

@Feral
You said all about monks and shuras...being a class player what do you think can balance it and don't start a endless whining discussion of childish monk players?


I still think that some skills should do 50% damage if outside a combo. i.e asura and gate of hell.
they are reaally powerful to be spammed

TR...
06-15-2010, 10:49 AM
Yea that's why definetely i didnt posted in the shura topic.
Is the same to enter in a jail with 30 murderers and say:
"Guys you're mad!!! I blame your actions!"

TchuTchuKao
06-15-2010, 10:58 AM
TR sugestion isn't complicated...
Every 1 sec=20% original power and it will realy balance the G.Fist.
Same should be done with GoH.


They don't want balance...
They want "I can do everything yey!!1!" you can clearly see by the Paladin/Champion/Prof players posts.

Hitori
06-15-2010, 11:45 AM
wouldn't be easier to give different casts to different levels of the skill and different multipliers and you just choose the level that fits the situation?

Feral
06-15-2010, 11:53 AM
@Feral
You said all about monks and shuras...being a class player what do you think can balance it and don't start a endless whining discussion of childish monk players?


Endless whining isn't my thing xD I usually try to give a few posts to make points, but if it's impossible to persuade or get a message through, then it's better to stop posting. Also, the childishness seems to be pretty well spread from what I've read on this board o-O; To prove my point, I'm not going to dignify a couple certain posts with responses.

Regardless... My individual thoughts on Monk/Sura balancing bounce between quite a few things. The obvious changes are for Guillotine Fist and Gate of Hell.

I'm actually for the unpopular decision to make Guillotine Fist's formula ignore both % modifiers and % reductions to do static damage based on the Monk's own stats (think Gloria Domini).

For example, using a rough outline of an extreme GFisting Sura, with 300 ATK and 4500 SP, the damage output would always be 137400 + Skill Bonus. For the less extreme Sura, sporting 200 ATK and 3k SP, this would come out to 61600 + Job bonus. With this, at 4500 SP, a player would need over 2000 ATK to touch a 1m GFist. Preserving high level MVPs, while still ensuring that a properly built Sura can break face with it.

As for Gate of Hell... I think the real answer would be to return it to a melee skill, or rather a combo melee skill. By this I mean that it should only be usable after Fallen Empire, in Rising Dragon status.

As for the other skills, they seem solid, but there really hasn't been enough testing to say for sure.

EDIT: One other thing would be Rising Dragon not stacking with Pressure Points or Blessing, but having priority over them when activated.

TR...
06-15-2010, 11:54 AM
Hitori it sounds good too :O

High levels, high cast, and high damage,

Low levels, low cast, and low damage.


Beside that, asura strike has less cast and more damage in high levels. Haha gravity... :D

TchuTchuKao
06-15-2010, 11:58 AM
@Feral
LoL

% card increase weapon atk,since sura weapon aren't that great in atk,Hydra etc etc etc...doesn't increase G.Fist dmg that much.

If they do this,G.Fist just get a boost.

FlameTyrant
06-15-2010, 12:06 PM
im just wondering when will jRO show their new Rk...since in the page the show the current one =/...

Aisu
06-15-2010, 12:17 PM
It's probably going to be a kafra shop item, pay to look better :gg:

Sousuke_Sagara
06-15-2010, 12:23 PM
@Sosuke:RK, Mec., RG those who have %aspd skills own the game again.Either with agi or not.Practically they'll have the highest aspd in any condition, and who said a RK can't invest on agi??

2) Def. has the same logic either, just like pre-re.Classes who can wear high def. equips (obviously RK and RG followed by Mec.) will get an huge benefit.

3) Statuses also have just slight changes, instead of 100 vit for immunity; people will have to seperate it, however; since one of the biggest problems is being frozen, most people will invest 100 int for getting freedom to their armors.I can't imagine a RK with tao gunka.Owned, oder so?


1) There is a BIG difference on getting max ASPD with 1 ~ 5 AGI, and with 100+. Also, i have to remenber you that 193 ASPD on a RK can only be easily achieved with and High Upgraded Alcabringer (No Slots)

2) Pre-renewal, any class can get 50%+ Def Reduction. Post Renewal only a few Classes (The real Heavy Tanks) can hit that amount, and even they can't get 80 ~ 90% Reduction. Its easy to get moderate Def reduction, but a LOT harder to get high reduction now thanks to the Non-linear formula.

3) But having to get 150 of Int/Vit/etc its almost impossible or at least very very Costly. This way player would have to choose immunity to just a few stats, not like now... that you can be immune to all the Stats if you invest on Genetic Foods.

Farjax
06-15-2010, 02:32 PM
@Feral
You said all about monks and shuras...being a class player what do you think can balance it and don't start a endless whining discussion of childish monk players?


Endless whining isn't my thing xD I usually try to give a few posts to make points, but if it's impossible to persuade or get a message through, then it's better to stop posting. Also, the childishness seems to be pretty well spread from what I've read on this board o-O; To prove my point, I'm not going to dignify a couple certain posts with responses.

Regardless... My individual thoughts on Monk/Sura balancing bounce between quite a few things. The obvious changes are for Guillotine Fist and Gate of Hell.

I'm actually for the unpopular decision to make Guillotine Fist's formula ignore both % modifiers and % reductions to do static damage based on the Monk's own stats (think Gloria Domini).

For example, using a rough outline of an extreme GFisting Sura, with 300 ATK and 4500 SP, the damage output would always be 137400 + Skill Bonus. For the less extreme Sura, sporting 200 ATK and 3k SP, this would come out to 61600 + Job bonus. With this, at 4500 SP, a player would need over 2000 ATK to touch a 1m GFist. Preserving high level MVPs, while still ensuring that a properly built Sura can break face with it.

As for Gate of Hell... I think the real answer would be to return it to a melee skill, or rather a combo melee skill. By this I mean that it should only be usable after Fallen Empire, in Rising Dragon status.

As for the other skills, they seem solid, but there really hasn't been enough testing to say for sure.

EDIT: One other thing would be Rising Dragon not stacking with Pressure Points or Blessing, but having priority over them when activated.

SORRY:omg:
I were not clear and almost start a flame....I mean :
give me a opinio that can balance shura to other classes level and doing so don't start complaining from other players...I never talked about you or your posts...my mistake...I apologize.

But thanks for your thoughts and I really liked your suggestions...simple, clean, and put things together... my '+' for you and I adopted this idea for shuras as well

Doddler
06-15-2010, 03:22 PM
jRO is officially mad. As they promised, there are no changes to the old exp chart. The new exp chart continues off literally where the last one ended.

Base Exp

360090500 99→100  531210807 110→111  572150629 120→121
377815025 100→101  535913813 111→112  573447138 121→122
396425776 101→102  540851970 112→113  574808474 122→123
415967065 102→103  546037035 113→114  576237876 123→124
436485418 103→104  552259113 114→115  577953159 124→125
459055606 104→105  555370152 115→116  579325385 125→126
470340701 105→106  558636742 116→117  580766222 126→127
482190050 106→107  562066663 117→118  582279101 127→128
494631866 107→108  565668079 118→119  583867625 128→129
507695773 108→109  569989779 119→120  588633194 129→130
523372462 109→110

592445650 130→131  722236162 140→141
596639351 131→132  755519863 141→142
601252423 132→133  792131935 142→143
606326801 133→134  832405213 143→144
616475558 134→135  912951771 144→145
624594564 135→136  977389016 145→146
633525470 136→137  1031157636 146→147
643349467 137→138  1153302698 147→148
654155864 138→139  1236233433 148→149
691978251 139→140  1650887110 149→150

Job Exp (First line is in thousands, 2nd and on in millions)
100/175/287/487/793/1063/1347/1687/2095
2.5/2.8/3.1/3.7/4.4/6.5/7.5/9/10/12
14/16/21/38/51/75/102/150/178/245
326/424/531/553/602/661/726/798/812/836
863/893/925/932/942/954/966/978/991/1000Monster experience is more or less what it was pre-renewal (25%-50% higher), but the monsters stats themselves are the same as koreas monster stats, with some modifications. Gungho appears to have done a very heavy amount of manual tweaking to monster stats.

For example, very high defense monsters, such as Ice Titan, Sleeper, Lava Golem, Horong have had their defense rate drastically increased to the 2000~5000 range (apparantly trying to mimic the damage reduction these monsters had pre-R), although that appears to have resulted in hillarious results when using an icepick (http://www.mmobbs.com/uploader/files/8919.jpg).

New world monsters have the same level and hp as before renewal, and maintain a seemingly abnormal amount of attack power (http://www.mmobbs.com/uploader/files/8898.jpg) (Centipede for example commonly does 3000-6000 damage).

MVP bosses have been adjusted, although at present people can only confirm different max HP values. For reference:

Randgris: 4,010,180 HP, 588 DEF
Beelzebub: 7,999,999 HP, 288 DEF
Ifrit: 4,054,713 HP, 436 DEF
Thanatos: 373,143 HP, 364 DEF
Wounded Morroc: 16,078,170 HP, 425 DEF
Mastersmith Howard: 1,752,000 HP, 301 DEF
High Wizard Kathryne: 1,283,904 HP, 215 DEF
RSX 0806: 672,879 HP, 317 DEF

A lot of jRO players are complaining about how much magic damage is nerfed too, go figure.

tetelo
06-15-2010, 03:31 PM
I don't know what is worst, kRO Renewal or jRO renewal.

kunekaden
06-15-2010, 03:32 PM
jRO renewal

Akin
06-15-2010, 03:33 PM
jRO by far.

Frost
06-15-2010, 03:35 PM
1,650 million exp to go from 149 -> 150?

...

41,000 million exp total from level 99 to 150?

jRO is mad.

annaquin
06-15-2010, 03:41 PM
In same time , tanking MVP is dead easy with monk now.

Feral... Asura is so cheap.. the only nerf possible would be a reuse delay of 1mn..otherwise getting food ATK, battle chant slave, etc... will always make MVP weak.

You didn't see yet, but 2 monk can almost chain MVP with blue pot for MS tank and blue smash for asura dealer. ( Just MS and Kaahi and that's all for tanking )

tetelo
06-15-2010, 03:43 PM
jRO by far.I like levelling in bio :rolleyes:

Anchahmancha Medlin
06-15-2010, 03:50 PM
If kRO = guinea pig server, jRO = guinea pig shit server.

Akin
06-15-2010, 04:07 PM
jRO by far.I like levelling in bio :rolleyes:

You won't like it when you need 1.6 bil exp to go from 149-150...

from 99-150...that's close to 30 Billion EXP. Have fun with jRO.

Couky
06-15-2010, 04:13 PM
I can't understand why they didn't keep the exp chart and monsters stat from Kro. They were one of the rare thing that wasn't messed up :x

Hitori
06-15-2010, 04:15 PM
they didn't implemento this in Jro... only in jro sakray right???

or did they really think this is fine o.?

Prodigy
06-15-2010, 04:45 PM
Why on Earth is jRO making it hard for them by completely coming up with brand new formulas/stats/etc for everything?? I'm starting to think that they have some sort of superiority complex for them to just not even bother touching 2 years worth of trial and error that kRO has been doing.

400k double attack on an ice titan. . . really :facepalm:. It goes to show how much foresight they put into their ideas.

Then there's the exp charts and exp scale. As far as I know, kRO has done a spectacular job on rescaling exp. I don't know why jRO even wants to touch it.

annaquin
06-15-2010, 04:57 PM
O_O
What is hard is not to kill 1000 monsters , it's avoid to die. I am a GX on main and getting perfect dodge 100 is easy. Same goes for RG Reflect that only need a Sorc and a wife for Kaahi to kill whatever stand in front.
With 30k HP a RK is nearly impossible to kill in PVM with proper support....

The only thing is the horry when you die ( Freeze Lag ) -1% exp and you feel despair, I am not a nolife and play for fun, but seriously when you die, you just want to quit. The context to die is always the same, a card or a rare item drop in a middle of a pack.

Realus
06-15-2010, 05:05 PM
400k double attack on an ice titan. . . really :facepalm:. It goes to show how much foresight they put into their ideas.
From how many numbers there are, and the animation.
I'd have to think that was a 400k Cross Impact.

Rccc
06-15-2010, 05:12 PM
1% at 149= 1,650,887,110

O___O

Clogon
06-15-2010, 05:16 PM
I wonder what is their Ice Pick formula.

Professor X
06-15-2010, 06:15 PM
I bet that's the same as KRo, as I said somewhere in this forum, Gravity people seems to not to see and adjustment in the big context of the game but only in the narrow scope of the issue they are handling at the moment.

The results are obvious, the more they try to ammend errors, the more they are spawning new ones.

ShiroiGin
06-15-2010, 06:20 PM
the 400k thing was Cross Impact indeed...not Double attack...

also...what's so wrong about the exp thing...i personally felt bad when i saw the Korean exp chart...the japanese made it a challenge to actually make it to 3rd classes and you'll only see a minority of them unlike Kro where almost everybody is either Trans or 3rd...imo that'd result in some balancing with class destribution (not talking about the other balance that everybody seems to be seeking) 50% non-trans...30% trans and maybe 20% 3rd...

Atum
06-15-2010, 06:34 PM
also...what's so wrong about the exp thing...i personally felt bad when i saw the Korean exp chart...the japanese made it a challenge to actually make it to 3rd classes and you'll only see a minority of them unlike Kro where almost everybody is either Trans or 3rd...imo that'd result in some balancing with class destribution (not talking about the other balance that everybody seems to be seeking) 50% non-trans...30% trans and maybe 20% 3rd...
However the extremely long leveling time it takes to level a level 1 novice to level 99 trans class by normal average leveling is what turns off most new players because compared to other games the amount of time you need in order to level your char to 99 in current RO is ridicilous.

So having players require 150~200 times the time it takes to level from level 98->99 in current RO in order to do level 99->150 is pretty messed up.
Lets say you do 98->99 in one day on a 1x server, it would take you 150~200 more days (about half a year) to reach 150 if you continue leveling each day and with the same amount of time each day.

teh_hungry_cavalry
06-15-2010, 06:48 PM
This is madness.

What are they thinking? Are they taking our lives away? IMO, that is just plain absurd. How about those people who cannot afford to grind as they used to?

Doddler
06-15-2010, 07:00 PM
http://zoome.jp/phos/diary/37 - The spell fist (in the second half) is stronger than I expected!

Farjax
06-15-2010, 07:01 PM
This is madness.

MADNESS?:mad:

NOOOOO!

THIS IS JRO!!!!!!!!
http://jovemnerd.ig.com.br/v4/especiais/2007/cinema/300/img_thisisparta.jpg

Feral
06-15-2010, 07:02 PM
This is madness.

What are they thinking? Are they taking our lives away? IMO, that is just plain absurd. How about those people who cannot afford to grind as they used to?

Not only that, but Ragnarok has evolved from a "social grind" to a grind, with content that is still challenging at the end. RE shifts gears with what is, and is not the challenging part, and adds more grind, but the result is ultimately the same. Healthy amounts of grinding to build the character, and then challenges to enjoy the character with player interaction.

Clogon
06-15-2010, 07:11 PM
@Doddler:
That is actually a normal Spell Fist. With 400 matk on undead 4 should do 400*15*2=12k not including mdef and etc.

Prodigy
06-15-2010, 07:20 PM
the 400k thing was Cross Impact indeed...not Double attack...

also...what's so wrong about the exp thing...i personally felt bad when i saw the Korean exp chart...the japanese made it a challenge to actually make it to 3rd classes and you'll only see a minority of them unlike Kro where almost everybody is either Trans or 3rd...imo that'd result in some balancing with class destribution (not talking about the other balance that everybody seems to be seeking) 50% non-trans...30% trans and maybe 20% 3rd...
Try Flyff or some other MMO where by the time you reach half the max level, it already feels like you're grinding the same way you would as a 98 preRenewal trans. I repeat half the max level. That's really bad for RO where end-game content is important (at least in Flyff, you can fly around the world and do some decent sight-seeing and have instances designed for low-mid level chars). But still, it is such a huge turnoff come PvP (and WoE is RO's main selling point) where after many long arduous months of leveling, you can barely hold a candle to most of the players.

teh_hungry_cavalry
06-15-2010, 07:22 PM
Nice Farjax. I was kind of expecting that reply. Just made my day. /gg

Prodigy
06-15-2010, 07:30 PM
http://zoome.jp/phos/diary/37 - The spell fist (in the second half) is stronger than I expected!

How does staff matk work on jRO? I thought that the grand conclusion with kRO testing is that piercing staff and +9LBW aren't so great, or are there no better 1-hand staffs? (I understand the need for a shield on some places, otherwise it would be better to use 2-hands)

Inferno Nightblade
06-16-2010, 04:04 AM
Between the entire derring-do with cast time, the attack formula (which is just completely batshit insane), and now the exp table (I mean seriously, what the fuck), I'm beginning to wonder whether Gung-Ho just hates jRO.

Even if Gravity KR screwed quite a few things up, I'll...actually disagree and say that they got quite a few major things right, the exp table among them. Physical attack isn't broken in its own right (which is one of the fine points with Asura - part of the reason why suras can get 5m Asuras is because they can stack Striking, Pressure Point, Windmill, things like that as I recall), as it kind of is on jRO.

...and I think that one of the issues was assassin crosses looking cross-eyed at ice titans and them falling over. (Not specifically ice tittays, but...well, you know.)

I don't know. kRO kind of realized that there was pretty much nowhere left to go after trans. The response by Gung-Ho seems to be pretty much, "FUCK THAT WE'LL JUST SCALE IT UP." (Forgetting that scaling it up just exacerbates the problems of pre-RE.)

I think the analogy of kRO : guinea pig :: jRO : guinea pig shit is rather apt, personally. Then again, I think I was a bit iffy on the concept of Renewal when it first came out, so maybe jRO should just be given some time.

Noctis_Lucis
06-16-2010, 04:34 AM
As for Gate of Hell... I think the real answer would be to return it to a melee skill, or rather a combo melee skill. By this I mean that it should only be usable after Fallen Empire, in Rising Dragon status.

I dont really see any problem with GoH, i mean you need to have like <10k hp too efficiently use it. And thats really risky. they should add a delay though , like 1-1.5 sec just for victim to be able to outpot it.

EDIT: One other thing would be Rising Dragon not stacking with Pressure Points or Blessing, but having priority over them when activated.

"Don't fix what ain't broke".


I think that the only shura skill that needs fix is CC, if i could i would
remove it and spent some points on better skills, i mean it dosn't fit the class, it's a "guarantee" skill for a job that always was meant to be all or nothing.

Feral
06-16-2010, 05:07 AM
The real problem with GoH is that it can be used 3 times consecutively, with an average of 18-20k output with some reduction resistence. I don't think another SP draining face-breaker is going to make the job over the top, but consecutive ranged firing takes it beyond a GFist+TSS cross, so it would be better off as an alt finisher which has forced tandum. As for the HP effect, it would make sense for balancing's sake if the skill were based on a single shot, but that simply isn't so, so it becomes that much more over the top. My suggestions aren't just for PvP play either mind you, the job needs balance between one skill and it's alternatives to ensure dynamic value.

As for stacking buffs, the Pressure Points, Monk Morphs and Aco buffs all work perfectly fine together, but Rising Dragon overlaps the effects of Fury and PP:Revitalize, ontop of giving Suras a higher sphere count, effectively making the RD builds superior, combine that with other buffs from Minstrel/Wanderer, Sorcerer, Arc Bishop. I'm not against Zen being cast during Rising Dragon because it speeds up the process, but further buffing under RD from things other than equipment and statfood makes the job focus around a single skill, once again, and have an option with no flawing in the rest of the build, but instead dictating it.

With RD not stacking with other buffs, and the only way to GFist with CC would be to use RD, which seems fitting enough, if the Sura is built for it, and it consumes skillpoints to make the build even more cumbersome. CC itself isn't so bad, but there isn't any regulation on the skill usage during it, but only one skill makes it the nasty trap that everyone wants to jump on so quickly.

I do however, like the idea that someone challenges my opinions with their own, giving their own views on the matter without insulting or trying to knock the job because of a bias/vendetta =) That is the way a forum is supposed to function, right? So kudos

Couky
06-16-2010, 05:55 AM
I don't know. kRO kind of realized that there was pretty much nowhere left to go after trans. The response by Gung-Ho seems to be pretty much, "FUCK THAT WE'LL JUST SCALE IT UP." (Forgetting that scaling it up just exacerbates the problems of pre-RE.)That's only because they didn't release enough map for leveling, that's probably why they released already ep 14 when the 3rd class aren't all balanced.

I still prefer the exp chart from Kro though yes some monsters don't have nice stat and there are still some things to fix but at least their exp chart is less grind fest than Jro.

TR...
06-16-2010, 06:14 AM
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6783/sadgoodbye.gif Ragnarok

ShiroiGin
06-16-2010, 07:22 AM
i gotta admit that...after actually thinking about it...i think Jro's new exp table absurd...that much exp is just...impossible...
but still...Kro's is totally ridiculous...(8m 98->99 trans...? what the heck...>.>)...maybe if they halved ir even cut the required exp by 3 it would give better results...grinding would be more or less fun...while still taking a little time to reach higher levels...

Professor X
06-16-2010, 07:24 AM
A middle point among both, KRo and JRo could make a good renewal, the point is that they do not seem to see that way.

Joule
06-16-2010, 10:33 AM
i gotta admit that...after actually thinking about it...i think Jro's new exp table absurd...that much exp is just...impossible...
but still...Kro's is totally ridiculous...(8m 98->99 trans...? what the heck...>.>)...maybe if they halved ir even cut the required exp by 3 it would give better results...grinding would be more or less fun...while still taking a little time to reach higher levels...
They just want the game to be accessible for every Beginner.
It is well though that just 3rd need hughe exp, because they are now the main character there. Transcendant is now a Bonus like Job 50 for 1rst job:angel:

TR...
06-16-2010, 11:16 AM
What about the "fix in the variable casting time"

what it changed the cast?

Jatzu
06-16-2010, 11:26 AM
they prob just fixed instant cast with negative stats.

Clogon
06-16-2010, 03:07 PM
Yeah Negative Stats do not give instant cast anymore. Tested with the -450 int Ranger Bug. =P

Prodigy
06-16-2010, 03:57 PM
@Doddler or whoever is also keeping up with jRO news.
Someone in this thread mentioned that jRO planned to have Renewal on their main servers by the end of this month. But now seeing how they want to go crazy on just about everything, are they still on schedule for the end of this month?

Inferno Nightblade
06-16-2010, 05:46 PM
...I love it when I post on iWiki in the morning and come back in the evening to see that the servers had fun with what I typed. :omg:

Anyway, fixed it.

@Couky - I dunno, though. Think of it this way - on kRO, the experience needed to get to 150 is not much more than that needed to get from level 1 novice to 99 trans pre-RE, if any higher. (Leveling has also been changed around a bit - for one, I don't think that we're going to be doing Heat in Biolabs quite as much, though I'm not sure how jRO plays out.)

On jRO, the experience to get from 149-150 alone is pretty much the same as that needed to get from level 1 non-trans to level 99 trans pre-RE. Okay, so currently 98-99 trans is very near the same exp as 1-99 non-trans, but even still that is batshit insane.

I mean, the experience table might be fine in the current game environment, but given Renewal...I am simultaneously very glad that I am not Japanese and terrified because jRO is by far the largest server.

But on its face...I will admit, I'm on the outside looking in, but a lot of things are just - in my opinion - inexcusably broken. Melee damage is one thing - they tried to adapt the kRO formula to make it so that everyone wouldn't have to run out and get entirely new weapons, but in the process they just ended up making physical damage absurdly high. In the rush to fix relatively valid problems with some skills (notably the archer skills, although to a degree magician skills as well), they inadvertently re-implemented instant Asura and instabomb (which were two of the most broken things pre-RE - although that got quickly fixed).

While kRO does have its problems, my personal opinion that - as of current - it's the superior model. And I think that at this point in its development, it was still the superior model.

I do kind of agree with the midpoint theory, though. On one hand, you don't want your player base to sacrifice their lives to Ragnarok (as it seems rather likely that jRO will end up doing). On the other hand, as I understand it the Koreans do a lot of soloing because it's so easy, and - in the end - it is an MMO. (Although that may be more a function of server preferences. On the other hand, bashing playing iRO, I do know that we're efficiency over all, and if soloing is more efficient...)

I don't know. Forty-one billion experience to max level, even given all of our pre-RE advantages, is just...how could anyone think that was a good idea is beyond me.

Couky
06-16-2010, 06:24 PM
I think Renewal for kro is to attract more new players because on other mmorpgs : you kinda just level ("quicky ") on your own a lot till you reach the max level then have to find parties for equipements. Not to mention that every class could level on the same map instead of now.

I can understand that people who've gone through the hard way like us (pre-renewal players) feel that's a joke to level with the chart exp of Kro but... I still prefer this way, since it would be less time consuming and maybe it could help some server like Fro to get new players because they will be able to level rather "easely" like on a pserv.

Aldenn
06-16-2010, 09:40 PM
oh help us if they intend to use the jRO renewal table for every version of ro out there. New players would be turned off by how long it would take to reach 3rd class. Old, dedicated players would be frustrated by how much longer it would take them to grind to reach the new max level. People in between would be very tempted to just quit.

Prodigy
06-17-2010, 02:27 AM
oh help us if they intend to use the jRO renewal table for every version of ro out there. New players would be turned off by how long it would take to reach 3rd class. Old, dedicated players would be frustrated by how much longer it would take them to grind to reach the new max level. People in between would be very tempted to just quit.

I just thought about this:
Monster experience is more or less what it was pre-renewal (25%-50% higher), but the monsters stats themselves are the same as koreas monster stats, with some modifications. Gungho appears to have done a very heavy amount of manual tweaking to monster stats.

Uhm, then it would take jRO 360m from 99>100. On the other hand, we are using preRenewal monster exp (or close to it). But then again, with kRO monster stats, Kasas and Bio3 are well in the 140+ range in terms of how strong they are. At the early 100s range, we're looking at Ice Titans here, and I don't think anyone wants to grind Ice Titans for >360m exp per level.

Or on our journey to 99, since bio3 are too strong, we're gonna be grinding Siromas. What's more fun than killing ~1 bil exp worth of Siromas in getting 90>99 trans. Sure if it was bio3 or dimensional gorge or thors, it wouldn't be bad.

Hitori
06-17-2010, 08:09 AM
maybe if there was a map with five thousand of them I would grind for a while... but only because I'm an ice pick user and dismantling them by sneezing would be fun for a small while... it would get old fast Though

TR...
06-17-2010, 10:52 AM
More grind = More Boring

Akin
06-17-2010, 11:23 AM
kROs exp table was fine. it made it easy to get to 99 trans, and then moderately grindy to get to 150 considering that leveling isn't supposed to provide the exp/hr that pre-renewal provides.

Friendly enough to allow new players the ability to quickly get in range of all vets who will already be 3rd class, yet not so quick that veteran players max out their chars and get bored right away. If kRO can now provide enough end game content to occupy us, we should be in a good place.

rafah
06-17-2010, 12:22 PM
I think the faster to go trans, the better. Because all 3rd classes are really strong and fight against them just with a normal 2-x class is kinda annoying and underpowered (duh).

If it stays this way, we won't see any normal 2-x classes at WoE or PvP.

Doddler
06-17-2010, 04:46 PM
http://circle.zoome.jp/rulpy/media/10

SakrayJ, wanderer soloing Kiel-D-01

FlameTyrant
06-17-2010, 04:58 PM
D: too much.i hope that the players realize that their sak is a mess DX

Professor X
06-17-2010, 08:00 PM
I wonder what bow was used, as in the stat windows a whip and shield are shown.

Max Period
06-17-2010, 08:09 PM
On kRO, very high levels monsters give A LOT less raw exp than pre-renewal (example: pre-newal Kasa gives 8x as much exp as kRO). On the other hand, high level monsters have a lot less base attack damage compared to pre-renewal, and level 140+ monsters have excess amount of HP.



Speaking only numbers, for level 149-150 jRO Sakray takes about 17 times the raw exp than kRO. But real testing is needed...

Joule
06-17-2010, 09:10 PM
I agree that it is a bit sad, Doddler could tank and Kill Sword Master so easily. May be they should be more powerfull. But let's wait maybe the AI progress will be implented.

About Doddler Video with the wanderer. Somehow it is fair if you see how Other class can kill MVP too.
But this Problem with people Soloing MVP was always like this in ragnarok. They don't favorise Mass Group Party.
For this, The AI adjustment could Prevent people from soloing MVP, don't you think? some MVP would be nearly impossible.

Atum
06-18-2010, 06:48 AM
I agree that it is a bit sad, Doddler could tank and Kill Sword Master so easily. May be they should be more powerfull. But let's wait maybe the AI progress will be implented.
Actually thats what i think is one of the best features of renewal :
Normal monsters get quite low atk so, contrary to pre-renewal where even normal monsters had up to 10k+ atk, there are no normal monsters that can 1-shot you and you dont have to spam tons of pots just because you got hit once, renewal on current kRO server is alot more friendlier for partys without a healing class.
Also the lower monster attack finally makes 2hand weapon classes more popular/possible.
I cant really say the same for current RO or jROs renewal where monsters have ~6000 atk again.

Even MVPs powerup-earthquake or powerup-hellsjudgement cant really 1-shot you anymore (in earthquakes case as long as you bring enough people) but personally i like renewal MVPs alot more, where their magic hurts alot but can be reduced by proper equip and fullscreenskills (HJ/EQ) do relatively low damage, than pre-renewal MVPs, where MVPs magic skills are mostly a joke but their powerupped fullscreenskills can wipe entire parties.

And while one sword guardian is not that dangerous anymore it is quite easy to get mobbed in thors and tanking 2 to 4 sword guardians or salamanders still hurts alot.

Jatzu
06-18-2010, 07:02 AM
Ya we were suffering from assumptio syndrome for a while now to and the monster stats on kRO make things easier. pre-renewal assumption is pretty much a must to tank and since it was so powerful they just made monsters that hit harder to counteract that making HP's a must have for any high end lvling situation. Post renewal that doesn't happen.

Hitori
06-18-2010, 07:19 AM
except JRO renewal also doesn't have the all damage halfing assumpio anymore... which was critical to reduce the overwhelming damage in pre renewal

Doddler
06-18-2010, 09:01 AM
I agree that it is a bit sad, Doddler could tank and Kill Sword Master so easily. May be they should be more powerfull. But let's wait maybe the AI progress will be implented.

To be fair, my LK prior to renewal can get damage down to three digits from a sword guardian. As far as a tank class is concerned, renewal isn't actually a big change. In a lot of cases, a character with pure tank gears will take less damage pre-renewal than post. There's just way more ways to drop monster attack pre-renewal. This player won't notice the huge change, the one that will notice is the one who can't wear defensive gears at all.

Neraid
06-18-2010, 03:03 PM
I agree that it is a bit sad, Doddler could tank and Kill Sword Master so easily. May be they should be more powerfull. But let's wait maybe the AI progress will be implented.
Actually thats what i think is one of the best features of renewal :
Normal monsters get quite low atk so, contrary to pre-renewal where even normal monsters had up to 10k+ atk, there are no normal monsters that can 1-shot you and you dont have to spam tons of pots just because you got hit once, renewal on current kRO server is alot more friendlier for partys without a healing class.

I really have to disagree with your outlook there. It sounds like one of the most boredom-inducing features of renewal.

There are lots of monsters available pre-renewal with low attack; but low monster attack on all monsters seems kinda pointless. (edit: unless, as Doddler says, it's just to balance out the def nerf post-renewal.)

Iruga Niisan
06-18-2010, 03:34 PM
i think what Atum is representing as "monster" are that monsters are farmed for drop items or exp.(Killing a deviling instead of poring..)

Jatzu
06-18-2010, 03:45 PM
I wouldent worry about low attack on monsters in renewal. I mean most monsters can be very dangerous with there regular attacks. Its just that certain classes can get so much armor def that it counteracts that allot.

im my opinion its a good thing. The tank classes can tank and the other cant so well it does allot better for class balance then pre-renewal where HP was instantly the best tank since it can heal itself get almost as much armor def as a Knight class and half all incoming damage.

Doddler
06-18-2010, 03:45 PM
jRO players have some complaints about renewal, but their biggest complaints are:

1) Genetic's Howling of Mandragora
2) The magic attack formula
3) The new lock skills (Manhole, Lullaby)

I'm not suprised about either to be honest. Howling is a horrible skill, and they made it even stronger. Some players were saying they would not show up to the siege test now because howling ruins any bit of fun.

TchuTchuKao
06-18-2010, 04:41 PM
But Manhole is completly fine... the chaser stop the enemy,so he can't atack also he can't be atacked too.

Inferno Nightblade
06-18-2010, 05:21 PM
...wait, what?

Maybe it's because I've been holed up in the SC thread, but Manhole's an issue now?

...well, it is spammable, IIRC. But seriously, how many people can one chaser keep locked? And the target's immune to everything except for Divest Accessory and...shoot, there's another thing that I can't remember.

Come to think of it, Lullaby's an issue? That was one of the first things kRO fixed, because they realized it was an issue! (Not gonna lie, I played a minstrel pre-RE, but seriously I'm doubly glad that it got nerfed - both from a game balance perspective and because then I might be allowed to play another class if I do come back post-RE.)

...unless jRO put in the original Lullaby. In which case, ELL OH ELL.

With the damage reduction - that's the other thing. And that ties into the magic thing - part of the reason why most magic (I should note the much-maligned Earthquake is magic, although specialized) was a joke was because of pre-Renewal's Assumptio functioning much like post-RE's Mental Strength (where it reduced damage by a percentage, instead of setting defense higher like post-RE Ass and pre-RE MS). You essentially were taking half damage from all magic skills - and while matk does get insane once you get into the hundreds, with all that reduction gear piled on it barely matters, I think.

Also, if I recall correctly, isn't magic attack for monsters now tied to the monster's physical attack instead of the monster's intelligence? That's part of why matk is so high - something like Valk (using the mini, though this applies as well to Randgris) hits really hard physically, but magically...not so much. (I will put it like this - pre-RE, her level 10 Jupitel Thunder - which deals 30 hits - wouldn't kill my high priest. Her Sonic Blow - which deals 800% of her physical attack - would one-shot him. Yes, he's an int build, and yes, he has vit, but on the other hand...monster JT10 has a modifier nearly four times as high as Sonic Blow to begin with.)

With magic attack itself - The thing is that both jRO and kRO utterly aborted it. The Japanese didn't take into account the major problems with kRO's magic attack formula - they assumed that the problems were because it wasn't exponential, but the problems really arose because of magic attack not accounting for as many variables as physical attack.

(Warning: a whole herd of teal deer ahead. Proceed with caution.)

Using the Korean model: I think that one of the things that Korea wanted to do with Renewal was shift the emphasis from statistics to weaponry with regards to damage. And I think this has been stated - one of the quirks of pre-Renewal RO is that as you got stronger, "weaker" weapons with more slots became more effective.

There were some exceptions - for example, with daggers, there were combination high-attack, high-slotted weapons that were pretty good all-around. But in general, you had (for example) knights leaning towards pikes and katanas, hunters opting for composite bows over gakkungs and the like, and other weird things.

For magic, the problem was a bit less, since - if I recall - the vast majority of wands and staffs do not add any straight magic attack (they all added percentages, if I recall correctly). However, it was all based on statistics - the easiest way to up your damage was to add more intelligence.

I think that Korea fixed the physical formula well - it works out about the same as pre-RE, essentially; however, the focus is shifted off of the player and onto the weapon. The magic formula is a bit lacking, though, because of the way that magic for players has developed (and because they left a few factors out of the magic formula - namely, the wAtk bonus).

With the Japanese...If I recall, one of the big complaints from Japan when they first tried out Renewal (the Korean version) was that it wasn't pre-RE enough - which is valid, since people have established themselves assuming pre-Renewal conditions, and to turn that on its head kind of puts people out of sorts. I think with the formulas, they tried to re-establish a pre-Renewal construct on top of the Korean one, and unfortunately ended up with an even bigger mess.

For example, with physical they wanted to make level 1 weapons not useless - but instead of counting in status attack for percentage modifiers (which would have fixed that problem to some degree), they used the Korean model but counted weapon attack anywhere from 2.5 to 2.8 times in the formula (which...causes a new set of issues). With magic, they assumed that the problem was that the formula wasn't exponential...and while the jRO formula does significantly outperform the kRO formula at absurd amounts of int, I think it's actually weaker up until around 170 int.

So on and so forth.

I think the way to fix magic attack is to:

1a) On kRO: Make it more similar to the pAtk formula, if they're going to meet the same ends. Perhaps even make it like pre-Renewal, where physical attack at the same stats is lower than magic attack at the same stats (i.e., 120 int gives higher magic attack than 120 str or 120 dex).

That's kind of one of the areas where pre-Renewal was equitable - since magicians didn't have as many carding advantages available, their formula was generally stronger to begin with.

Also:
-Multiply mAtk by 2 (at least) instead of 1.5 - even though I think that all mAtk (both status and equip) is elemental, I don't think that it compensates enough because of the aforementioned advantages physical attackers have.
-Add in the bonus! Very similar - if not exactly similar - to how phys gets it (+int/2% weapon mAtk - so 150 int adds 75% weapon mAtk).

(I'm not sure whether the Korean formula has that many issues. But that's what I'd do - although, I'm not sure whether my suggestions would cause a whole new set of issues.)

1b) On jRO, make the curve a fair bit steeper at lower levels and flatter at higher levels. Namely, instead of raising the bonus to an exponent of three, raise it to an exponent of...maybe 1.5? And divide by less (like, I dunno...15 or 5 or something). This has the benefit of not requiring your wizards and sages and rogues and crusaders to get five billion int to do anything worth a damn, and also not making it so that someone who does have five billion int does server-breaking damage.

2) Perhaps even up magic attack of staffs a bit.

3) Also make it so that the Staff of Destruction isn't the best staff for every single situation. Make the Piercing Staff worth a damn - and I don't mean by giving everything 500 mdef *cough*randgris*cough*

tl;dr - my thoughts on yaoi (and have i mentioned that i think jRO sak is a disaster area?)

Doddler
06-18-2010, 09:01 PM
http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11080130

This is a pretty good demonstration of why Genetics are broken. It's not just a jRO thing, they are this broken on kRO as well. I wonder how kRO players tolerate this kind of brokenness.

Also, manhole is equally lame.

TeaRs
06-18-2010, 09:07 PM
...wait, what?

Maybe it's because I've been holed up in the SC thread, but Manhole's an issue now?

...well, it is spammable, IIRC. But seriously, how many people can one chaser keep locked? And the target's immune to everything except for Divest Accessory and...shoot, there's another thing that I can't remember.

The other skill you forgot was shadow form. Also the fact you can continuously trap a target until you run out of paints or feel like stopping.

As for Howling of Mandrake, that is the worst skill ever thought up by Gravity and they didnt even balance it properly. Genetics now has over the top crowd control and burst damage.

Lucentos
06-18-2010, 09:40 PM
Man Hole can be fixed by forcing Manholes can placed at 3x3 enemyfree radius to prevent stacking lock or give Manholed players some kind of buff, that protect manholed player for 20 seconds from next Manhole. By the way i Lol`d on this video and Howling nastiness.

Clogon
06-18-2010, 11:24 PM
@Lucentos:
Man hole only needs a 1x1 area of free space.

Lucentos
06-19-2010, 12:20 AM
@Lucentos:
Man hole only needs a 1x1 area of free space.
Clogon, what`s your ideas to fix these skills - Deep Sleep Lullaby, Howling of Mandragora and Manhole?

TeaRs
06-19-2010, 01:10 AM
@Lucentos:
Man hole only needs a 1x1 area of free space.
Clogon, what`s your ideas to fix these skills - Deep Sleep Lullaby, Howling of Mandragora and Manhole?
Without changing the skills too dramatically. My suggestions would be:

Deep Sleep Lullaby
Success: (80+3*skill_level)-(INT/10) %
Resistance: INT
Duration: Can't make adjustment without current formula as reference

Howling of Mandragora
fixed cast: 0.25+0.15*skill_level second(s)
INT reduction: remains same
SP reduction: remains same
Success: (100-8*skill level)-(INT/10) %
Resistance: INT
Debuff duration: (5*skill_level)-[(INT+Base_level)/150]*skill_level seconds.

Manhole
Does not effect already trapped target.
Resistance: AGI
Duration: (5*skill level)-(AGI/30) seconds
Minimum duration is 5 seconds for all levels.

Frost
06-19-2010, 01:32 AM
Howling should add not more than 1 second of fixed cast IMO. Just 0.5 seconds is pretty bad enough.

Clogon
06-19-2010, 01:45 AM
http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11080130

This is a pretty good demonstration of why Genetics are broken. It's not just a jRO thing, they are this broken on kRO as well. I wonder how kRO players tolerate this kind of brokenness.

Also, manhole is equally lame.

Finally watched this after a full day of hunting items for iRO quests. I got to say: Why am I not surprised there is no Ranger in that vid? Was there even a GX?

Inferno Nightblade
06-19-2010, 04:18 AM
The thing is, though - with Deep Sleep: I think the success chance was significantly lowered when Gravity discovered that the original ninety-eight percent (approximately) success chance was crazy.

In fact, according to Future Wiki, intelligence was added in as a factor in January this year (although I exaggerated a bit when I said it was one of the first things they fixed - they did, but that was to disable it in non-PK maps because wanderers and minstrels were putting NPCs to sleep). In that regard, Realus' compilation (which was last edited in November 2009) is a bit out of date.

(And I think resistance is also percentage based - so every point of int reduces your chance of getting it by 1% or something. I do not feel like reading through thirty-five pages at 6 in the morning, though.)

According to Realus' comp, you can actually stack Deep Sleeps - that's probably a big problem. Setting an aftercast on it would help massively (or making it unstackable) - although if that's already been fixed, that's moot.

The Manhole suggestion is actually somewhat fair - maxed versus someone like a ranger, they'd be held for eight seconds. (Maxed versus someone like a guillotine cross or enemy SC, more like ten seconds, if that.) In the rush to defend MAH CLASS, I forgot that just removing certain characters from play (even if you can't eliminate them) is still really bad. (Although SF would prevent the chaser from continuously Manholing, I should note. ;) )

I like the idea of not being able to spam it on people as well - that's also a decent way to fix it.

Mandragora...There are quite a few ways to fix it.

First, lower the success rate. That's fair enough.

Second (and this is kind of crazy): Make fixed cast unbreakable, but variable breakable. I think part of the reason why the Japanese got so butthurt over fixed cast was because it pretty much made it so that a wizard-type could be owned by a ranged (or even a sneaky-enough melee). If the Koreans are going to mandate that Storm Gust take at least 3s to cast, they could at least be kind enough to give the wizard a free 3s to prep it.

Third - yeah, reduce the increase in fixed. That's actually a very good fix; 0.5s is possibly a bit short, but I think 1s would be fine.

Or, in another light - base it off of the original cast time (like have the increase in fixed level * 10% - or 50% at level 5). So you don't get stupidity like - say - Pneuma and Heal taking 3s to cast.

On the other hand, wizard players will...err...howl because a change like that only sticks 0.2s on Asura, but 1.5s on Storm Gust and other skills like that. (I use SG as an example because I'm familiar with its cast time - I already know that it's old and busted.)

Nretep
06-19-2010, 05:16 AM
Did I see a 3 of 3 successes in Sienna of the Warlock ?

Lucentos
06-19-2010, 06:03 AM
Doddler, what`s thoughts of Japaneese on Renewal classes and balance?

Frost
06-19-2010, 07:48 AM
Doddler, what`s thoughts of Japaneese on Renewal classes and balance?

jRO players have some complaints about renewal, but their biggest complaints are:

1) Genetic's Howling of Mandragora
2) The magic attack formula
3) The new lock skills (Manhole, Lullaby)

I'm not suprised about either to be honest. Howling is a horrible skill, and they made it even stronger. Some players were saying they would not show up to the siege test now because howling ruins any bit of fun.

:swt:

Rumm
06-19-2010, 08:36 AM
http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11080130

This is a pretty good demonstration of why Genetics are broken. It's not just a jRO thing, they are this broken on kRO as well. I wonder how kRO players tolerate this kind of brokenness.

Also, manhole is equally lame.

and this is before homoc S comes out.

Lucentos
06-19-2010, 09:19 AM
Frost, sorry, but i`m just tried to say that i`m more concerned on overall opinion on each 3rd class from Japaneese and especially their thoughts about improving underdog ones.

Kuran
06-19-2010, 09:28 AM
mandragora should just become a single target skill, such awfull debuff being AoE is a bit too much.

kunekaden
06-19-2010, 09:37 AM
Single target with 15 second reuse

Doddler
06-19-2010, 11:11 AM
http://zoome.jp/imariso/diary/66

SakrayJ 'Defense Day'. Defense Day is the siege day where guilds are paired by server to attempt to hold a castle from the other guilds. As opposed to free-form siege where guilds just wander around. This video is the Surt server defense.

Somehow looks more like a real siege than any of the korean videos. :P

Frost
06-19-2010, 11:28 AM
@03:30 THANK GOD THE MUSIC CHANGED AT LAST.

Quite an impressive mix of classes. The only class that seems to be missing are Mechanics (Yes, I could see some, but barely). SG is still a great crowd-control skill as it stalls and flinches players that passes through. Dragon Breath is now a staple for pre-casts. Howling of Mandragora is sick. It's EXTREMELY fast cast, it goes through walls, has a ridiculously high success rate, lasts a relatively long time, and affects all enemies on the screen.

Hitori
06-19-2010, 11:35 AM
so many pedobear faces @@...

hey look at that! there is a GX with daggers in this video!

no rangers though

kunekaden
06-19-2010, 01:03 PM
since when does epiclesis work in woe?

Hitori
06-19-2010, 01:47 PM
since when it didn't?

Xxelos
06-19-2010, 02:22 PM
@2:54 Is that Stapo a graphic effect for a skill or did like... a Stapo somehow wander into a WoE map? lol...

Hakumei
06-19-2010, 03:16 PM
@2:54 Is that Stapo a graphic effect for a skill or did like... a Stapo somehow wander into a WoE map? lol...

It's for one of the Warlock skills Sienna, or Marsh, I forget .. ;x

Iruga Niisan
06-19-2010, 03:27 PM
http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11080130

This is a pretty good demonstration of why Genetics are broken. It's not just a jRO thing, they are this broken on kRO as well. I wonder how kRO players tolerate this kind of brokenness.

Also, manhole is equally lame.

Finally watched this after a full day of hunting items for iRO quests. I got to say: Why am I not surprised there is no Ranger in that vid? Was there even a GX?

why should they play fun chars :D

Clogon
06-19-2010, 04:27 PM
@03:30 THANK GOD THE MUSIC CHANGED AT LAST.

Quite an impressive mix of classes. The only class that seems to be missing are Mechanics (Yes, I could see some, but barely). SG is still a great crowd-control skill as it stalls and flinches players that passes through. Dragon Breath is now a staple for pre-casts. Howling of Mandragora is sick. It's EXTREMELY fast cast, it goes through walls, has a ridiculously high success rate, lasts a relatively long time, and affects all enemies on the screen.

And what have I been complaining about since I PvP'd against a Genetic? =P


http://zoome.jp/imariso/diary/66

SakrayJ 'Defense Day'. Defense Day is the siege day where guilds are paired by server to attempt to hold a castle from the other guilds. As opposed to free-form siege where guilds just wander around. This video is the Surt server defense.

Somehow looks more like a real siege than any of the korean videos. :P

Currently if you want to play Ranger and be useful in WoE you only have 2 choices even with the ubber atk formula jRO has:

1) Falcon with 190+ ASPD and Luk to hitlock. (The most useful you will ever be!)
2) Warg for WBite and some Range DPS. (not that useful with all the other Immobilization out there...)

0:15-0:20 Warg Ranger just standing there. Only purpose is to Warg Bite but does nothing during the 5 second Reuse. Useless...

0:24-35 Falcon Ranger1 just staying behind allies for 15s of nothingness.

0:28-32 Falcon Ranger2 using Arrow Shower. Then attacking with ~190 ASPD with Auto Blitz...

0:48-0:51 Falcon Ranger 2 casting Windwalk with Howling on...

3:38-3:55 Falcon Ranger 2? places Electric Shockers that only lives 15s and just reverts back to traps... He does nothing after placing the traps and losing his Falcon.

4:10-4:30 Petless Ranger is just standing there.

4:22-5:20? Falcon Ranger using FAS. God why does it have a 1s Fixed casting time in kRO? Then starts Ctrl+click after the 5 min mark.

4:51-5:05 Petless Ranger just attacks, Arrow Shower and instantly dies to 2700% Matk 11x11 AoE of Comet...

5:22-5:40 Warg Ranger trying to take down Sura while on ME?? then dies to Asura while affected by Allurio.

6:26-7:04 Ranger Spamming Arrow Shower while affected by Howling... then proceeds to ctrl+click at 6:50.

7:04 ctrl+click Ranger then switchs to FAS and FA? (Can't read Jap...)

10:00-10:10 A cluster Bomb just laying there...

Things I wish to see more of:
IceBound and Firing Trap being used to spread Burning (If eneme has Auto Cast equips, they will target themelve =P) and Freezing (-ms,def,aspd and casting time)

Edit:
Notice how none of the Ranger's Arrow Skill tree is used?

Feral
06-19-2010, 04:38 PM
http://zoome.jp/imariso/diary/66

SakrayJ 'Defense Day'. Defense Day is the siege day where guilds are paired by server to attempt to hold a castle from the other guilds. As opposed to free-form siege where guilds just wander around. This video is the Surt server defense.

Somehow looks more like a real siege than any of the korean videos. :P

Holy crap o-O If I saw right... that genetic took out a Rune Knight and a Shadow Chaser at the same time... Killing the Sura didn't surprise me at all (though it was funny that right afterwards the genetic got fisted xD). But, Rogue-class characters tend to be some of the hardest characters to kill, and Knights have copious amounts of HP o-O soooo... killing both in one shot is kind of frightening.

Inferno Nightblade
06-19-2010, 04:42 PM
Playing a rogue-class pre-Renewal: It depends.

Rogues can be surprisingly squishy. And given jRO's attack formula and AB being based off of attack post-RE...

Feral
06-19-2010, 04:51 PM
Playing a rogue-class pre-Renewal: It depends.

Rogues can be surprisingly squishy. And given jRO's attack formula and AB being based off of attack post-RE...

Well from the looks of it, the Shadow Chaser was a melee based build, which tend to have too much VIT to stun-kill, too much HP to one shot, too much Flee to get more than 80%~ HIT on (those being DEX builds). o-O I'm not saying that Rogues are invulnerable by any means, but that ATK formula is really screwing something up if a melee Rogue goes down that quickly.

Doddler
06-19-2010, 05:25 PM
jRO yesterday it turns out completely disabled Manhole and Thorn Trap from siege until it could be rebalanced. They also apparently changed the effect of Mandragora, it now has a much lower chance of success. With 1 of all stats, it worked about 50% of the time, with 100 vit or 100 luk it worked about 20%, and with 100 of both vit and luck, it worked about 5%.

Clogon
06-19-2010, 05:44 PM
@Doddler:
I thought you said Thorn Trap was fine. =P Or do you mean Ivy Wall?

Hitori
06-19-2010, 06:09 PM
howling is pretty broken, but giving it a more sane effect is much more reasonable than lowering affliction odds by a huge amount... are game developers really that bad at coming up with usefull and yet balanced negative status?

Strip
06-19-2010, 06:48 PM
I really hope iRO gets kRO version of renewal then jRO's:facepalm:

Neraid
06-19-2010, 07:17 PM
Burning (If eneme has Auto Cast equips, they will target themelve =P

OOoh, burning counts as being hit by yourself? I smell some musketeer hat action there.
I wonder; is there any way to proc burning on yourself in pvm? Or any monsters that give you that effect?

Clogon
06-19-2010, 07:39 PM
No but you can use Leech End instead negligible damage per sec. =P

Edit:
O yeah because Burning and Leech End is self damage, you get no exp. If you are doing an instance/quest that requires you to kill monsters (like the new dungeon) and they die from Burning/Leech End you will not beable to advance/complete the instance/quest.

Professor X
06-19-2010, 08:33 PM
howling is pretty broken, but giving it a more sane effect is much more reasonable than lowering affliction odds by a huge amount... are game developers really that bad at coming up with usefull and yet balanced negative status?

As always.

They seem to not understand that while a negative effect can be overpowered if it has a high succes chance, it becomes useless with complete inmunity or a near zero % of succes.

As I have said before, gravity seems to not find the middle point in a lot of issues about the game.

Doddler
06-19-2010, 10:41 PM
Here's some of the summaries of the jRO class balance discussions.

Arch Bishop

A support priest without sacrament isn't any different from a normal priest.
Heal is too weak.


Warlock

Glorious Staff and Hibram card are weak as they stack addatively with skill mod (fixed on kRO).
Status MDEF reduction makes low % magic like bolts very weak (An SG can deal 40k with all of its hits, but a level 10 Firebolt will do 2.5k damage)
Stasis is dangerous. A well placed stasis can instantly break a precast.
Summon Ball's have no use beyond tetra vortex. They're useless skill points.
The range of Jack Frost is too big, it causes problems while hunting.


Ranger

Compared to bow skills of Wanderer/Minstrel, Arrow storm is way too weak.
Actually in general ranger is too weak.
Focus Arrow Strike is too nerfed. The crit attacks don't bypass defense.


Guillotine Cross

Weak in both PVP and PVM.
Shadow Chasers use GX poison's more efficiently than GX. Poison smoke isn't nearly as effective.
A poison specialized GX has almost no useful active skills.


Mechanic

The robot is weaker than just normal cart.
The cost of using the robot is incredibly high.
If you teleport while taking damage that would have killed you, you still lose the robot.
Neutral barrier has a completely different effect than the description states.
Mechanic Axe skills are pretty weak compared to Genetic's cart skills.
With max job at job 50, there's no value in refining skills.


Shadow Chaser

Manhole is blocked from Siege, but a better fix is needed.
The success rate of mascarades is too high, there's almost no way to resist them.
Strip accessory works on targets in manhole. It can even be used on players in town and normal maps.
Chaos Panic affects players in town and normal maps.
Shadow Form ignores devotion.
Deadly Infect in combination with Jack Frost is stupidly strong.
Fatal Menace works on MVPs.


Sura

Asura is still too strong. Shouldn't it get a 1/2 damage like Acid Bomg gets?
There's no balance with the cast time of Asura, Zen, and Gate of Hell. Because of jRO's repeal of the fixed cast on Zen, these skills can be spammed without limit.
Combo skills are bad as ever.
GTB + Mental Strength is impossible to kill.


Genetic

Thorn Trap is blocked in Siege (due to a bug), but a better fix is needed.
The old mandragora was incredibly broken, but just changing resistances doesn't fix it.
Portal bugging Mandragora is horribly broken.
Acid Bomb speed needs fixing. Removing the 1s fixed cast from kRO makes it too harsh.


Sorcerer

Spellfist instant kill bug.
Can't use spell fist outside of party.

Clogon
06-19-2010, 10:57 PM
Here's some of the summaries of the jRO class balance discussions.

Ranger

Actually in general ranger is too weak.


=D

Hakumei
06-19-2010, 11:00 PM
Wow. We have been complaining about 80% of this stuff for the longest time.

TeaRs
06-19-2010, 11:09 PM
Here's some of the summaries of the jRO class balance discussions.

etc.
Well stated complaints there but...some are already fixed and jRO just didn't bother using the kRO version?

Rune Knight: No complaints!! That's cool?
Arch Bishop: pretty much nailed down.
Warlock: Least someone finds Stasis useful.
Ranger: another one that's pretty much nailed.
Guillotine Cross: GX poison should be made so isn't consumable like it is on kRO Sak.....Maybe they need to rethink EDP again too.
Mechanic: Most neglected, needs serious overhaul.

Royal Guard: Once again, no complaints. Surprising.
Performers: Satisfied users or maybe just balanced?
Shadow Chaser: Masquerades on kRO already has a capped success, other things are just bugs Gravity ignored.
Shura: Finally people admits the imbalance.
Genetic: Another class that is imbalanced.
Sorcerer: lol @ spellfist bug. No other complaints about summons? Weird.

Mihai
06-19-2010, 11:13 PM
Sorcerer

Spellfist instant kill bug.


How does this bug work? D:

kunekaden
06-19-2010, 11:15 PM
no RK/RG complaints is surprising to me

Doddler
06-19-2010, 11:16 PM
Sorcerer

Spellfist instant kill bug.


How does this bug work? D:

You strike a monster using spell fist of the same element. It causes a negative overflow that kills it.

http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11089748

So for the most part, jRO breaks down the classes roughly in the following categories:

Best: Shadow Chaser, Sura, Genetic, Royal Guard
Strong: Rune Knight
Average: Sorcerer, Wanderer/Minstrel, Mechanic
Weak: Ranger, Warlock, Guillotine Cross, Arch Bishop, Mechanic (Robot)

Clogon
06-19-2010, 11:17 PM
@Mihai
http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11089748

Edit:
Oh no the Oracle ninja'd me!!!

Prodigy
06-19-2010, 11:25 PM
Here's some of the summaries of the jRO class balance discussions.

Warlock

Status MDEF reduction makes low % magic like bolts very weak (An SG can deal 40k with all of its hits, but a level 10 Firebolt will do 2.5k damage)


Shadow Chaser

Shadow Form ignores devotion.


The mdef thing has always been a problem since preRenewal. For example preRenewal ME against Lord of Dead does 1*10=10 damage when it's supposed to be a total of 100%*10=1000% matk while one hit of SG can do at least 250 damage when it's supposed to be only 500% matk, and let's not forget the elemental advantage of ME being holy. . . Physical attacks have the same problems, but not as severe as magical attacks where a total of 500% matk per hit this does 25 times more damage than a 100%*10 matk.

As for Shadow Form bypassing devotion (it is iRO Sacrifice right?), I don't see the problem with it. It's like whining about preRenewal Kaite bypassing sac.

The rest of the stuff, it's all already been noted in the almost 2-years that kRO has been developing Renewal (Yes, I know that a ton of classes, especially the 3-2 ones, only came last year). Silly jRO for acting like this is all new. Seriously, why don't they just expand on what kRO has been working on instead of trying to start from scratch.

Hakumei
06-19-2010, 11:30 PM
You strike a monster using spell fist of the same element. It causes a negative overflow that kills it.

http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11089748

So for the most part, jRO breaks down the classes roughly in the following categories:

Best: Shadow Chaser, Sura, Genetic, Royal Guard
Strong: Rune Knight
Average: Sorcerer, Wanderer/Minstrel, Mechanic
Weak: Ranger, Warlock, Guillotine Cross, Arch Bishop, Mechanic (Robot)

So basically, 3-1 classes with the exception of Rune Knight just plain SUCK.
This is amusing. (Yay, Rogue class is top tier!)

Clogon
06-19-2010, 11:42 PM
@Prodigy:
It is new to them.


WOW! Chasers really are better than GX at spreading GX poisons. GX fails to poisons someone already affected but Chaser just overrides the old poison! Just tested with Tears.
I am surprised to see this resault...

Doddler
06-19-2010, 11:42 PM
Well, they can be effective if they're played well.

For example:
http://ro.doddlercon.com/video/nicovid.php?v=sm11079872

On the other hand, watch the end of the video for some Royal Guard BS. :p

Inferno Nightblade
06-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Something tells me that jRO didn't implement a lot of the balance things from kRO...

That said, under the old Masquerade formula, Masquerades do have stupidly high success...if you have low agility. (And the chaser has high dexterity, but considering the class we're talking about here, this is much like hypothesizing that water is wet.) With high agi, it's only like 10% chance. For a targeted skill.

I think the chance is somewhere inbetween if you have moderate agility - like, 30-40%.

So, like Divest, you could gain stat resistance to it, if not immunity. Unlike Divest (or old statuses), it wasn't on a standard statistic for all WoE-build classes, which is why it actually worked (and sometimes too well).

The newer formula is more equitable in chance, I think, though I think it might actually be based on level. Which...may actually make things worse - the DB RKs and magicians don't get quite as boned when some shirtless guy wearing a feather boa shows up on screen, but aspd classes do get more boned.

Now that I think about it, that may just be the problem - one of the things I liked about the old formula was that it was possible to gain resistance to it. With the new one - where it's either fixed chance or based on level - it's at least a 50% chance if you're equal level, and a 150 chaser can paint the face of whoever the fuck he wants. It lowers the chance against low-agility classes, yes (where they don't get masqueraded the first time, every time), but...

While I'm on the subject of rogues - Feral, that's the thing: I'm betting that it is the attack formula. With jRO especially, Acid Bomb (though I do love the Acid Bong typo in Doddler's summary) is really an all-physical skill, compared to where it's a more even balance between phys and magic on jRO and on iRO and other pre-Renewal servers, it's all in the bio's int.

And since physical attack is completely retarded (actually, no, it's not retarded - that's insulting to the mentally disabled, because many of them can at least keep from crapping their pants every two seconds)...well, there you go.

Getting on other classes - I find the comparison between AB and Asura rather novel, and I think it's due in large part to the fact that Asura scales insanely with suras (have i mentioned 3k SP derp). And also, have I mentioned that I hate hate hate jRO's attack formula and think it's absolutely bonkers?

I also think that point magic defense is a bigger issue since so many more things factor into it now, and - yeah - magic attack is generally lower. But that's just an inherent feature - and although it affects phys attackers to a lower degree, it's still an issue with them as well. (Although their multi-hit skills tend to be sub-hit, there are multi-hit skills like DA and DS.)

Though tracking back to the original point, I am really, really shocked at some of the divergences. Sorcs are considered balanced on jRO? On kRO, they're considered one of the most overpowered classes (next to suras)! Conversely, SCs are OP on jRO? On kRO, it seems like chasers are pretty much the only 3-2 that hasn't had at least one valid complaint against its brokenness yet!

I think a lot of it might come down to playstyle - after all, in this thread, it was noted that jRO's defense test was one of the closest things to what we'd consider siege play here. kRO does tend to be more individual-play.

Though I think I've found the way to balance Psychic Wave: Apparently, break the magic attack formula. orz

And...I am done for the night. I can't think about game balance right now.

Hakumei
06-20-2010, 12:21 AM
But Shadow Chaser is their favorite class :x ...

Clogon
06-20-2010, 12:25 AM
@Inferno Nightblade:
They do have an old RE. No summons and pre fixed Racials.

About chasers, I agree that it is because of play style. kRO players tend to want to kill more than support or disable.

Sorcs aren't that OP anymore not since their balance which is why they aren't in top tier by jRO's and kRO's standards.

Edit:
Too bad the ridiculous atk formula doesn't help Rangers or GX... Even Mech with their Max power is only considered average...

Joule
06-20-2010, 12:39 AM
Here's some of the summaries of the jRO class balance discussions.






Arch Bishop

A support priest without sacrament isn't any different from a normal priest.
Heal is too weak.


Warlock

Glorious Staff and Hibram card are weak as they stack addatively with skill mod (fixed on kRO).
Status MDEF reduction makes low % magic like bolts very weak (An SG can deal 40k with all of its hits, but a level 10 Firebolt will do 2.5k damage)
Stasis is dangerous. A well placed stasis can instantly break a precast.
Summon Ball's have no use beyond tetra vortex. They're useless skill points.
The range of Jack Frost is too big, it causes problems while hunting.


Ranger

Compared to bow skills of Wanderer/Minstrel, Arrow storm is way too weak.
Actually in general ranger is too weak.
Focus Arrow Strike is too nerfed. The crit attacks don't bypass defense.


Guillotine Cross

Weak in both PVP and PVM.
Shadow Chasers use GX poison's more efficiently than GX. Poison smoke isn't nearly as effective.
A poison specialized GX has almost no useful active skills.


Mechanic

The robot is weaker than just normal cart.
The cost of using the robot is incredibly high.
If you teleport while taking damage that would have killed you, you still lose the robot.
Neutral barrier has a completely different effect than the description states.
Mechanic Axe skills are pretty weak compared to Genetic's cart skills.
With max job at job 50, there's no value in refining skills.


Shadow Chaser

Manhole is blocked from Siege, but a better fix is needed.
The success rate of mascarades is too high, there's almost no way to resist them.
Strip accessory works on targets in manhole. It can even be used on players in town and normal maps.
Chaos Panic affects players in town and normal maps.
Shadow Form ignores devotion.
Deadly Infect in combination with Jack Frost is stupidly strong.
Fatal Menace works on MVPs.


Sura

Asura is still too strong. Shouldn't it get a 1/2 damage like Acid Bomg gets?
There's no balance with the cast time of Asura, Zen, and Gate of Hell. Because of jRO's repeal of the fixed cast on Zen, these skills can be spammed without limit.
Combo skills are bad as ever.
GTB + Mental Strength is impossible to kill.


Genetic

Thorn Trap is blocked in Siege (due to a bug), but a better fix is needed.
The old mandragora was incredibly broken, but just changing resistances doesn't fix it.
Portal bugging Mandragora is horribly broken.
Acid Bomb speed needs fixing. Removing the 1s fixed cast from kRO makes it too harsh.


Sorcerer

Spellfist instant kill bug.
Can't use spell fist outside of party.

we were talking bad about Jro, but they go straight to the problem not like Kro, whitch doesn't even notice who ist weak and wo is too strong

Still i am surprised that even Jro don't talk about cool down on Asura, but talking about tweak damage instead.:confused: I mean there is not only woe. MVP too.

But it seems JRO want to see big number on damage and favorise slingle play, when KRO favorise group play.
well if every body is very strong as single player....if they Group...--->unbalance.

I came to a point, i am very disapointed about renewal. I expected something like a revolution in they way play.

Lucentos
06-20-2010, 12:51 AM
I`m not surprised by this summary of class balance. jRO just claimed our thoughts from iROWiki and i do hope that classes will be rebalanced once again by Gravity.

Iruga Niisan
06-20-2010, 12:53 AM
Edit:
Too bad the ridiculous atk formula doesn't help Rangers or GX... Even Mech with their Max power is only considered average...

I told you, don't worry :) When they notice people quit from those weak chars, they'll have to fix^^

Frost
06-20-2010, 01:28 AM
I'm starting to wonder whether jRO has the racial fix yet. I can still see Warlocks doing 25k x4 hits TV.

mikhail21
06-20-2010, 01:29 AM
GXs should be able to dodge magic as well. Defense wise, GXs already suck big time.

StarShadow
06-20-2010, 01:38 AM
Uh, I thought SC is pretty fine. Aren't debuffs and negative tricks their main role? Without the abilities then what is SC? I smell that GX want to outrole SC in all aspects (JRO). And I think making shadow form able to ignore Devotion is quite good, making Devotion a forerver-good skill is stupid.

Except that they pretty much stated the main problems as us. :)

-
No magic dodge, but I think Grav should make the new poisons a lot more useful, and improve the Aspd and skill damage issue for GX.

D.

Frost
06-20-2010, 01:49 AM
GX already has magic dodge. It's called Hallucination Walk. :p

Feral
06-20-2010, 02:43 AM
I don't see Shadow Chasers being able to spread GX poisons through AoE as a job breaking thing, though I think that GX poisons should instantly kill players who drink them. Meaning that a GX would have to apply the poison to the Shadow Chaser before they can spread it through infect. To this respect though the SHIFT version of Venom Impress should instead infect an ally with a null version of the poison coated on one's weapon (by consuming 1 Antidote), which becomes active when Shadow Chasers use Deadly Infect. Perhaps encouraging players working with inter-job/class combinations would make RE much more balanced?

crow_mw
06-20-2010, 06:13 AM
Wow, apparently so few people play minstrel/wanderer, that there even aren't any thoughts on their balance @@

mikhail21
06-20-2010, 06:22 AM
@Frost

Oh yeah. Silly me. Though it only lasts for a measly few seconds and has enormous cooldown time.