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Nretep
02-04-2010, 03:35 AM
(...)
Yeah, name me a reason to play Sorc if WLs can deal greater damage than Sorcs, regardless of the situation, the element, and always bigger AoE, lol.
(...)
- Having one AoE spell being universal on every element
- Greater survival ability
- Dispel
- Indulge
- Soul Change
- Good Crowd Control- read "regardless of the situation"
- a bit higher, yes
- Ganbantein
- SP manipulation, lets say "support"
- see above
- WL has better crowd control

so
power + control + speed
vs
support

Your mistake Nretep is that You think that Sorcerer's job is identical to Warlocks - to nuke.Your mistake Slapzech is, that You think the players decide what the classes jobs are.
And yeah, I clearly differed the jobs, and you say I said they're identical.

Elie
02-04-2010, 03:35 AM
since Wls need to be stronger when it comes to AoE

why not decrease PWs overall damage and put a stun chance for every hit
that would last for 3 secs?

Sage class are all about statuses and disables...
putting a stun on PW is not illogical i believe

while giving comet the PWs damage on all its cell...

would it sound fair?

actually Sorcs should be the 1vs1 killers...
great deviant magics should what Sorcs have

edit: Sage class never suffers from large aftercast delays..its logical for SOrcs to spam spells too...
wiz class on the otherhand should have long delays but large AoE damage

Gio
02-04-2010, 03:43 AM
Ntrep, are you quoting my name wrong on purpose?, i'd like you to stop that.

No... Ragnarok's Elemental System is pretty bad done, you can easily use Fire Armor and still get super high reduction against Water element, Wind Element, and Earth Element. Atum guessed about being able to reduce two elements to 100%, and not reduce them at all.
Yes it's possible to wear a fire armor with high water reduction and a bit of wind and earth one. Feel proud when every enemy in WoE equips to defend your skills. If they didn't do any damage, you wouldn't equip so. If PW would be so uber as you all say, every player would try to get a GR, raydric diamant and parasite card. But a simple Hide clip seems to be enough.

O yeah, sorry, i forgot Ghostring is as common as Pasana, my bad (?). And, there something you forgot to mention, Pasana reduces Fire Damage to 25%. Ghostring Reduces Neutral damage to 70%. Pretty big difference right?


No-one said Sorcerers should not have damaging AoE skills, they should havealot WL posters here seem to think so

talking about brag, then WLs are stronger. The skills have less cast with same reUse. Assuming a high bragi almost completly removes the varCast and aftercast, it's fixed cast and reUse of both skills. WLs win.

qoute me on that, please.

if you'd have followed Gravities steps, you'd see that Gravity wants to re-adjust the jobs. They decreased the casts of WL skills (and Wiz skills) while remaining the power (or increasing it). Dex gives MAtk, too. The WL hat asks for 120 baseDex. Your baseModifers are lower than PWs.
while Sorc is now forced to get int to get damage (MAtk is not enough), Int lower cast (no more 1 int/ 99 dex builds), the SorcHat wants 120 BaseInt and PWs cast is lower than almost every WL cast.
So Gravity wants (yeah, qoute me on "Nretep wants") WLs to be a faster caster than Sorc, while Sorc gets the nuke (with DoT, lol).

#The hats are pure crap for both classes, lol.

I have been following Gravity's steps, thats the reason why i complain, 'cause theiy are going to self-destruct. I don't know what you want, but if you are unhappy with the current situation you should complain, not support it. If you are unhappy with the current situation, that means we both agree on that, but if you are unhappy with the current situation, i just can't understand why you negate everything so much.

There is an error on your statements though, since Sorcerer is faster and deals higher damage than Warlock, both at the same time.

Listen, Ntrep, i don't know how many classes have you play and loved during your Ragnarok experience... I have played all classes during my 7 years of Ragnarok, and i like more than just Wiz-class, Professor is one of my fav classes, at my eyes however, Gravity is just killing the uniqueness of this class by giving them the same role of a Wizard-class, i as a Professor can't accept that, i don't know what you want, but it seems like it does not bother you as long as your class keeps higher damage output than a Warlock. I have been saying i want Sorcerers to get buffed in the abilities they should be the best at, but it seems like all you care about now is how much damage your class can deal.

About Bragi... you're totally wrong, if a Sorcerer gets Bragi it means AoE Slaughter.


Yeah, name me a reason to play Sorc if WLs can deal greater damage than Sorcs, regardless of the situation, the element, and always bigger AoE, lol.

-Psychic Wave: 11x11
-Crimson Rock: 7x7 Splash
-Soul Expansion: 5x5 Splash
-Comet: 1x1

So, the only Spells with bigger AoE than yours are Frost Misty and Jack Frost, you should burst your illusion bubble already xD.

With nerfs come buffs, i did not say "Nerf Sorcerer to hell", i said "Nerf Sorcercer's Damage output BUT HIGHLY buff their Disabling/Supportive/Defensive/SP-Manipulating/Physical-Magic/Weird-Magic/Onetarget Magic and their versatility. So, anyone would play sorcerer for what they are, and not to play a super advanced version of Wizard class.



Str: 4+4
Agi: 1+4
Vit: 93+7
Int: 120+27
Dex: 102+8
Luk: 62+4

And possible better with a carefully studied build, OR... did you want to max everything ?doddlers calc says:
"Remaining Stat Points: -15
Total Stat Points: 2597
Stat Points Used: 2612"

ok, I played around with the calc (http://ro.doddlercon.com/r/aspdcalc/calc.php) (guessing it's right). Seems that you're "right". I when I try to lower the int and maintain the cast (1 dex for 2 int) and use the remaining points for luk, the stMatk will only be lower (assuming you don't want Agi or Str).
but the question now is, why don't you use those stats for your WL, too ? Exchanging luk (or int) for dex swaps power for speed, none is superior (assuming we're ignoring the single digit percents). There's no statBuild a WL can't copy, while there're WL build which would be useless for Sorcs PW and EG.

[ Edit ]
I now got how to simply explain what I mean.
While we say the vit, str and cast are "fixed", the remaining constellation of stats, may be the on with the "highest destructive power". So you can only swap the power for castspeed (int or luk to dex). But for WLs reducing int means pretty equal swap of power to speed, while for sorc it's losing double power for the same speed gain.



Sure, i can use the same build for a Warlock, but there are a few outstanding points you should notice.
-The Same amount of Vit on a Warlock, and a Sorcerer, results on higher Hp for the Sorcerer, this gap only widens when +%Hp gear is equipped by both classes
-Each point of int increases their damage output much more than what 1 point of int increases the Warlock's damage output. (For a Warlock, 1Int is just +1.5MAtk when it comes to damage, while for a Sorcerer 1 point of Int is +1.5Matk, and Higher Damage Modifier for their skills), this gap only widens when buffs that increase int are applied
-Dex is the only stat that works equally for both classes, only that, since most Sorcerer's skills have lower variable casting time than those of Warlock's, with the exception of Psychic Wave, but PW's variable casting time becomes a joke if you hold a Mental Stick on your hand anyways. So, while a Warlock needs to get as much dex as he and his grandmother can possible get just to be effective, you can be more effective and in most cases faster than a Warlock with less Dex than a Warlock.
-There is equipment that highly enhance your ultimate spell, while there is no equipment than enhances any of the Warlock's supposed ultimate spells (Comet, and Tetra Vortex). There is only equipment for Crimson Rock, which is a 7x7 AoE Fire Spell, and doesn't even come close to comprare with PW, plus, there is more equipment for PW than there is for Crimson Rock
-You can equip a shield while maintaining yout best possible damage output (Mental Stick is the best staff when it comes to damage output for Sorcerer class), and let me add that this damage output is higher than that of a Warlock that sacrifices his shield-slot to wear a 2-handed Staff.


I repeat i dont know what you want, but why do you seem so keen on wanting to have two classes with the same role. If 2 classes have the same role, there will always be one that is better than the other, regardless of which class it is, its not what we should seek for, is it?.
If Warlocks were overall better than Sorcerers right now, i'd still complain, if they roles were the same, and Warlock did it better than sorcerers.

Nretep
02-04-2010, 05:21 AM
Ntrep, are you quoting my name wrong on purpose?, i'd like you to stop that.dito

O yeah, sorry, i forgot Ghostring is as common as Pasana, my bad (?). And, there something you forgot to mention, Pasana reduces Fire Damage to 25%. Ghostring Reduces Neutral damage to 70%. Pretty big difference right? that's called "specializing". While you fully equip vs fire, everything else hurts alot. When you equip vs neutral almost all incoming damages (exc WL) will be drcreased. That's why the GR got a "change"

#The hats are pure crap for both classes, lol.besides that.
but WLs look better, and the previous Sorc hat wanted 120 bAgi ...

I have been following Gravity's steps, thats the reason why i complain, 'cause theiy are going to self-destruct. I don't know what you want, but if you are unhappy with the current situation you should complain, not support it. If you are unhappy with the current situation, that means we both agree on that, but if you are unhappy with the current situation, i just can't understand why you negate everything so much.I never said "I prefer Sorc dealing damage over Sorc supporting", did I ?
I'm still missing the quote, that I really like the current sorc.

But I seriously doubt that they'll destroy the current concept of Sorcs and renew every skill. I often said the opposite of "I want Sorc to deal AoE damage" and I'm pretty sure you (Gio) have read this, too.
But since Gravity decided that Sorc goes the path of destruction, I don't want the WL to be stronger under any condition. Then Sorc would've no meaning exc being a nerfed SP battery

There is an error on your statements though, since Sorcerer is faster and deals higher damage than Warlock, both at the same time.exc Comet every (?) skill of WLs are faster in being casted as well as in dealing damage than PW.

About Bragi... you're totally wrong, if a Sorcerer gets Bragi it means AoE Slaughter.WLs have lower fixed casts, so they will be faster in bragi.

-Psychic Wave: 11x11
-Crimson Rock: 7x7 Splash
-Soul Expansion: 5x5 Splash
-Comet: 1x1LoV, MS, SG ?

With nerfs come buffs, i did not say "Nerf Sorcerer to hell", i said "Nerf Sorcercer's Damage output BUT HIGHLY buff their Disabling/Supportive/Defensive/SP-Manipulating/Physical-Magic/Weird-Magic/Onetarget Magic and their versatility. So, anyone would play sorcerer for what they are, and not to play a super advanced version of Wizard class.yeah, I also often said similar things to this.
I really hate the current PW. the long cast + damage over time without pushback or status just sucks. Even SG is better in my eyes.
I said before that I'd prefer a PW with a short cast (as PWv1) growing damage each hit (seventh will be have the damage of PWv1 hit) (or first hit strong and the others getting lower) and higher reUse, while cutting EG and DD as damage spells.so the sorc has one possibility to deal damage, and one spell the WLs are jealous of. But no spell to chain (hd ...), and still enough damage in decent (9x9) aoe. And for pvp/ woe just cut the damage by 50% (like ad) and make it 1~2% to dispell

I'd also like to swap the preskills of VE and PW, since I think VE suits the Dispell tree and PW the "all elements" one.
And DD/ EG should have different effects, while SFist and VSpear have been fine.
CK has always been an exception for me.

and yes, I posted this before

Sure, i can use the same build for a Warlock, but there are a few outstanding points you should notice.
-The Same amount of Vit on a Warlock, and a Sorcerer, results on higher Hp for the Sorcerer, this gap only widens when +%Hp gear is equipped by both classes
-Each point of int increases their damage output much more than what 1 point of int increases the Warlock's damage output. (For a Warlock, 1Int is just +1.5MAtk when it comes to damage, while for a Sorcerer 1 point of Int is +1.5Matk, and Higher Damage Modifier for their skills), this gap only widens when buffs that increase int are applied
-Dex is the only stat that works equally for both classes, only that, since most Sorcerer's skills have lower variable casting time than those of Warlock's, with the exception of Psychic Wave, but PW's variable casting time becomes a joke if you hold a Mental Stick on your hand anyways. So, while a Warlock needs to get as much dex as he and his grandmother can possible get just to be effective, you can be more effective and in most cases faster than a Warlock with less Dex than a Warlock.
-There is equipment that highly enhance your ultimate spell, while there is no equipment than enhances any of the Warlock's supposed ultimate spells (Comet, and Tetra Vortex). There is only equipment for Crimson Rock, which is a 7x7 AoE Fire Spell, and doesn't even come close to comprare with PW, plus, there is more equipment for PW than there is for Crimson Rock
-You can equip a shield while maintaining yout best possible damage output (Mental Stick is the best staff when it comes to damage output for Sorcerer class), and let me add that this damage output is higher than that of a Warlock that sacrifices his shield-slot to wear a 2-handed Staff.- Vit yes, since Sorc once went the path of a ... a crumbled by RE path
- yeah, each int double increases the destructive power of Sorcs. But as well as every mising point of int double decreases its damage. And since the base can be said to be 150, it's rather the double decreasing.
- no, only EG is faster (dunno about VS), but PW and DD (the usual damaging skills) are slower than the most WL skills.
- well, there is instant comet and instant TV as damage increasing skills. TV can be increased by elemental area fields and element.
- well WLs can equip every (?) staff a sorc can equip. So WL has the same option plus additional ones. Especially those with more matk

I repeat i dont know what you want, but why do you seem so keen on wanting to have two classes with the same role. If 2 classes have the same role, there will always be one that is better than the other, regardless of which class it is, its not what we should seek for, is it?.you changed your "opinion" now from "You do" to "I don't know what you do/ It seems you do", while still guessing wrongly

Shinusagi
02-04-2010, 05:37 AM
Agree with Gio... here we want Sorcs to have better Disabling/Supporting skills, and still some good AoE skills but not the same as Warlocks in offensive power

We are waiting for Gravity to improve their Disabling and Supporting capacities and nerf their AoE Offensive Skills (because the Single Target Magic is not a big Problem)

Even Tetra Vortrex should be a Sorcerer Skill while Psichic Wave should be a Lock one but Gravity think with so much alcohol in their blood

Slapzech
02-04-2010, 06:23 AM
(...)
Yeah, name me a reason to play Sorc if WLs can deal greater damage than Sorcs, regardless of the situation, the element, and always bigger AoE, lol.
(...)
- Having one AoE spell being universal on every element
- Greater survival ability
- Dispel
- Indulge
- Soul Change
- Good Crowd Control- read "regardless of the situation"
- a bit higher, yes
- Ganbantein
- SP manipulation, lets say "support"
- see above
- WL has better crowd control

so
power + control + speed
vs
support


It's not "slightly" higher. With both Sage class tree skills and hp mod survival ability of Sorcerer is MUCH higher than Warlock.

Also: tell me what is the casting time of Gangantein, and of Dispel. Go ahead.

Only decent CC i see from Warlock is Sienna, which will be easily counterd, and Frosty Misty. They are decent, but not as good as Arullo or other sorc CC skills (which is exacly how it should be imho.)

SP manipulation is a godly ability. If You underestimate it, You can't use it.


Your mistake Nretep is that You think that Sorcerer's job is identical to Warlocks - to nuke.Your mistake Slapzech is, that You think the players decide what the classes jobs are.
And yeah, I clearly differed the jobs, and you say I said they're identical.

It is the players who decide the roles of classes. Developers give them instruments for this, named skill. If a developer plan a class to be Tank, but players find the class skills to be better at DPS, then they will pay the class as dps.

Hitori
02-04-2010, 06:39 AM
I'm really hope gravity stops being lazy and makes summons both existant and worth getting. That way people could talk about readjusting the Aoes without leaving sorcerers being a feathered prof, sorcerers could get their exclusivity skills and we could all jump happly over the rainbow...

on a side note though most warlocks skills carry some nasty status effects, buffing their damage or usability too much could cause some major balancing issue(yeah the game has several but still...).

it's funny that psychic wave is powerfull because it has nothing special about it. I mean... it causes nothing but damage, so the damage is stronger, it has no special element and that makes it stronger, the hit detection is kinda ripped off from storm gust and that makes it stronger...

the blander the magic, the stronger it is... and psychic wave is the pinnacle of blandness.

Nretep
02-04-2010, 06:39 AM
- read "regardless of the situation"
- a bit higher, yes
- Ganbantein
- SP manipulation, lets say "support"
- see above
- WL has better crowd control

so
power + control + speed
vs
supportIt's not "slightly" higher. With both Sage class tree skills and hp mod survival ability of Sorcerer is MUCH higher than Warlock.then you agree with the other points
if it's not slightly higher, it's equal. MUCH equal.

Also: tell me what is the casting time of Gangantein, and of Dispel. Go ahead.tell me the casttime of spellbreaker, dispell, mrod, soulchange, ME, memo, dbolt, endows ?

Only decent CC i see from Warlock is Sienna, which will be easily counterd, and Frosty Misty. They are decent, but not as good as Arullo or other sorc CC skills (which is exacly how it should be imho.)WLs survivability skills are pretty equal to Sorc ones, while WLs are better in crowd control

SP manipulation is a godly ability. If You underestimate it, You can't use it.yeah, luckily RE didn't change anything

Your mistake Slapzech is, that You think the players decide what the classes jobs are.
And yeah, I clearly differed the jobs, and you say I said they're identical.It is the players who decide the roles of classes. Developers give them instruments for this, named skill. If a developer plan a class to be Tank, but players find the class skills to be better at DPS, then they will pay the class as dps.no, that's wrong, too. If you find an unintended way of the code, it doesn't mean that that's the role of the class. Even if you found it.
It's never been meant to be a role for TKM to be the fastest MVP killer with at least 70% difference. Nor it's been meant for the Sages to prevent MVPs from teleporting.

If the coder wants the Sorc to be a nuker, while the WL shall be(come) a fast caster, a player can't do anything, but use old skills, playing a different class.

Atum
02-04-2010, 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by Gio http://forums.irowiki.org/images/buttons_mns/viewpost.gif (http://forums.irowiki.org/showthread.php?p=666091#post666091)
-Psychic Wave: 11x11
-Crimson Rock: 7x7 Splash
-Soul Expansion: 5x5 Splash
-Comet: 1x1
LoV, MS, SG ?
LOV deals very low damage (~1300% damage total), MS deals random damage and SG deals less than half the damage PW deals (575% vs 1000%~1200% per hit), SG can be reduced alot easier than PW and has a longer fixed casttime and longer aftercastdelay.

Whether the pushback of skills is good or not is dependant on the player, i hate SGs and CRs pushback effect.

- well, there is instant comet and instant TV as damage increasing skills. TV can be increased by elemental area fields and element.
- well WLs can equip every (?) staff a sorc can equip. So WL has the same option plus additional ones. Especially those with more matkExcept that the more matk doesnt give the warlocks any advantage since PW has such a huge damage modifier compared to warlocks skills.

And stop using instant TV and instant comet as arguement, they are not available on normal servers, only on the testserver.

PanzeMagier
02-04-2010, 08:13 AM
For all intent and purposes, renewal is done to "refresh" the classic game play of ragnarok and bring back players and invite new ones.
Role-playing game is about fulfilling roles.
It seems that from the start you want to deal Aoe damage.
You even want crimson rock for the love of pete whilst true-blue sage class will ask for more creative supporting/single target/disabling skills that would really put emphasis on their roles.
And this will be the last time i say this, yeah we want that advantage over you because that's what we are for.
Magical Dps, Aoe Damage. That's our sole role. We're all for the damage.
Player Preferences centers on the nature of each class.
They pick one because they know what the class offers and prefers it.
Elemental advantages are purely situational. Most high end maps, dungeon instances, and PVP/WOE scenarios have mixed elements in them.
The most effective means of dealing with them is of course, neutral.
Plus, your demands for concession are highly uncompromisable (to say the least).
Elemental advantage isn't effected whenever you want like what you want to do with endow.
The mind breaker's +100 matk and double bolt double damage on all skills will make that +50% a joke, aside from it being game breaking (2x PW lolz).
If crimson rock will be our most powerful skill, then what's the point of Tetra-Vortex, the end skill? Of Comet?
I didn't say anything to directly attack your personality.
I just pointed out the obvious
as long as your class is good enough, anything else is irrelevant.
Majority of your posts proves that.



no, it's not.
RE has been implemented because Rebirth has shaken the game and implementing 3rd classes with the "old" mechanics would be impossible.
no, it's not. A role playing game does not mean you have a job to do. Otherwise an electronic Soccer-game would be a "role-playing-game", too, since you have a job to fulfill. Same with strategic games.
Role playing means you slip into a character (that's why it's called character, and not object/ human/ animal) and don't command 100s (like strategic games) nor 11 (soccer) nor a single one (1onX sports game), but you create one character and don't slip into anything else.
So "Wizard" is not a "role", but a "job"
yeah, even Mage has several aoe magic skills. Are you seriously suggesting a Mage -> Sage -> Sorc should not get any aoe skills ?
Then please say bye to SWall, Sight, FWall-Pushback, Freeze, StoneCurse, EnergyCoat, Stun, Blind, IceWall, Jupital-Pushback, Quagmire, SightBlaster, Curse, Ganbantein, Freezing, Burning, Radius, WImp, Stasis, DrainLife, FreezingSpell, March, Strip. Since they're not meant for the "role" of a Wizard.
yeah, you've completly looked through me. I always wanted to play sage with aoe magics ... it's not like there's a class that does have this already. Just try once to really check if I said this.
that's what you believe.
see 3.
no. Classes do what the game designer and the game coder decide, not what you want or believe
yeah, but you pick first and then want to get want you want, after.
have you played lvl 100+ on 100+ maps yet ?
as you saw Elementra
if you got a mob of all 4 elements, you do CRock and 25% is down, 50% half down and 25% just scratched. Then you do EStrain and all are down. So you've to tank 75% of the mob during the second cast.
While neutral damages 100% of the monsters by 50% and you've to tank the whole mob for the second cast (+ duration)
to say the least: it's your believe
Endow is a long cast. Not simply 0.75~1s delay for casting but more like 3s. It also has a costy catalyst requirement. And a successchance (sLvl1~3). And needs additional 20 skillpoints to perfect.
MindBreak is neither +100 MAtk, nor +100% MAtk. Check if you have an actual clue, or are just guessing.
DBolt has a chance to do additional 100% damage, not affected by SC or lex.
Then I accept mAmp to be an additional bonus when it's a single targeted enemy spell. +50% damage on the target for one skill.
you confuse or assume that "most powerful" is a single meaning. But it has conditions. Just ask actual WL players, they'll tell you
yeah, just a bit directly, but mainly indirectly, yes
and this was obviously wrong. You try to read more than I say.
don't try to get my personality, You failed, and you'll fail again. Read what I say, and only what I say.
be careful, there may be sarcasm and jokes in some of my posts
yeah, sure




Argh. It really gets tiring when people can't understand (or won't) what your saying. But Kudos to arranging though :)
1. By saying "refresh" I mean adjusting the mechanics to better suit the new changes. And developers have already pointed out that they did this to invite more players and bring back old ones. But of course, that's the main and ultimate reason. It's a business after all.
2. You create and pick a character because you know what it does and prefers it. If this is not supposed to be the case, then the whole past years of ragnarok (Which draws the line very explicitly between classes) have been an irony. And come to think of it, if the roles are indeed merging, home come your better than us on disabling/supporting/manipulating magic/surviving and still better than us on Aoe damaging? :rolleyes:
3. Never did I say we should be the only one with Aoes. Do know where you got that deduction. I said we should be the best on aoe damaging, not the only people who could do it.
4. You said it, I even bolded the statement.
5. Yeah, and many people do to.
6. see 3 :rolleyes:
7. Huh? I'm saying how people/players choose characters they want to play. That's knowing what the characters do and prefering it. You answer isn't even a bit relevant.
8. Whatever that means. See above.
9. I have. And one need not have to play to know. It's basically in every Ragna-database. Most of them have mixed elements. Also, some maps are even purely Shadow/Holy. So much for elemental advantage. PVP/WOE that advantage is almost nil.
10. I didn't say it's impossible, It just isn't as effective. And that's even considering that isn't always the case. Elements exists at levels HP mods of elemental monsters are different as well. Also, RO doesn't have only 4 elements. Just see above :)
11. Ask anyone who feels for the game about what you propose and see if they'll agree.
12. And so? It still means applying elemental property to every skill you have whenever you like. Whilst one must switch map to map which is dubious.
13. It says so in several databases. 80% is a rather big chance to say the least to double damage to all skills casted for 90 seconds.
14. You explicitly said it's WL best bet against PW. Thus. It implies it's more effective than Tetra and Comet, considering and averaging all scenarios.
15. If that's what you feel I've "attacked" your personality by deducing your intentions in your posts then its only your feeling. I don't intend to assail anyone personally because I know it's faulty logic. And if it is so, then I apologize, but it is not very well intended. But first, ask your self if you aren't faulted as well.
16. Many people share the same sentiments about your posts.
17. Same could be said to you. Read what people are really saying.
18. I could present posts but it'll go on forever. :p

Thunderbird
02-04-2010, 08:22 AM
I'm getting tired reading the same arguments over and over again - even those which have been proven false.
Count me out of discussion for a while.

Balancing is not done yet, I hope gravity will do some good changes.

Nretep
02-04-2010, 08:37 AM
Whether the pushback of skills is good or not is dependant on the player, i hate SGs and CRs pushback effect.having pushback on an one-hit skill and on a DoT skill is different. While the OH skill is released, you can instantly for got hit'n run. but with PW you've to tank the whole mob for its duration.

- well, there is instant comet and instant TV as damage increasing skills. TV can be increased by elemental area fields and element.And stop using instant TV and instant comet as arguement, they are not available on normal servers, only on the testserver.as you haven't noticed yet. I always will tell this advantage as soon as you name the sorc staff and the sorc orbs. And I'll keep doing that, sry.

Ars Exercitus
02-04-2010, 08:56 AM
Yeah, name me a reason to play Sorc if WLs can deal greater damage than Sorcs, regardless of the situation, the element, and always bigger AoE, lol.


Wow great counter, but you didn't answer my question. Seems you got no answer... -_-

(And before you ask again, if I remember correctly Slapzech gave you an answer to your counter-question.)

Nretep
02-04-2010, 09:13 AM
Yeah, name me a reason to play Sorc if WLs can deal greater damage than Sorcs, regardless of the situation, the element, and always bigger AoE, lol.Wow great counter, but you didn't answer my question. Seems you got no answer... -_-

(And before you ask again, if I remember correctly Slapzech gave you an answer to your counter-question.)my answer (to the opposite question) would be
- instant cast
- crowd control
- different kind of survivability skills
- easier leveling as 2nd class and trans 2nd class

so, what ?

Hybrid_Addict
02-04-2010, 12:38 PM
Sorc at: 45 STR 100 AGI 85 VIT 100 INT 81 DEX 56 LUK
vs
Warlock at: 107 VIT 110 INT 110 DEX 51 LUK
(no equips)

I want to see if Sorc can still do better damage than Warlock even with spread out stats (if yes, Gravity seriously needs help).

Skills used by Sorc: Spell Fist, Diamond Dust, Varetyr Spear, Pwave, Hindsight (Striking [at max endows = +175 ATK], double bolt amp or soul link amp or both)
by Warlock: Comet, Sienna E., CRock, Frosty Misty, Earth Strain, TV (mystical amp)

Rumm
02-04-2010, 12:58 PM
why strength on sorcerer...and why such low int man

Elie
02-04-2010, 01:47 PM
because not all Sorcs are inclined only to matk

we have Soldier Sorcs actually,
the only mage class capable of killing high mdef and gtb users
more efficient than those focused on matk


PW has such damage because...
not all Sorcs would spend their stats maxing int

and to get the highest damage of PW
a Sorc should concentrate more on Int and should have 150 base lvl

on the other case..Comet can give its damage output without the necessity of maxing int and attaining base level
Sorry but the only thing Comet needs is lower delay and spread the max damage on it AoE..thats it

Sorcs would need some other stats since Sage class was never meant to have only 1 build
wiz class always had its traditional fast cast large damage
(agi types are just recent builds)
sage class has FS,Bolters and Soldiers...

there is always the other perspective if one needs to look at Sage class

Hybrid_Addict
02-04-2010, 08:58 PM
Sorc at:
45 STR
100 AGI
85 VIT
100 INT
81 DEX
56 LUK
(no equips)
vs
Warlock at:
107 VIT
110 INT
110 DEX
51 LUK
(no equips)

I want to see if Sorc can still do better damage than Warlock even with spread out stats (if yes, Gravity seriously needs help).

Skills used by Sorc: Spell Fist, Diamond Dust, Varetyr Spear, Pwave, Hindsight (Striking [at max endows = +175 ATK], double bolt amp or soul link amp or both)
by Warlock: Comet, Sienna E., CRock, Frosty Misty, Earth Strain, TV (mystical amp)


why strength on sorcerer...and why such low int man



100 + 10 (from job) is not that low...


explaining definition above
Soldier/Melee: autocasters with STR


because not all Sorcs are inclined only to matk

we have Soldier Sorcs actually,
the only mage class capable of killing high mdef and gtb users without using Spell Fist in front of your opponent all the time
more efficient than those focused on matk


Corrected.

Rumm
02-04-2010, 10:24 PM
well yes the weakest possible option is viable if you prefer that, however it doesn't scale well when you compare one class at its worst stats to another at its best.

StarShadow
02-04-2010, 10:31 PM
I almost forget what should be replied after the lengthy argument lol.

I’m guessing that Nretep(you) don’t want to let the new damage role of Sorc go while you still want to keep the old advantage of Sage & Prof. (and the old ones should be even better instead of some little nerf).

But let’s say if Sorc successfully get the damage role and keep the support ability of Sage & Prof, since you are the highest magic damage dealer and best supporter now, what should Warlocks do? What’s their role?

We don’t want a SG or CR machine that always shadowed by Sorc too.
No one likes his/her role gets replaced by others.



I’d like to reply with the following points:
-
I think it’s pretty difficult to make the ideal PW to add more damage through hitting.
From what Grav did, it’s more practical(easy/lazy) to adjust the hit speed or the damage per hit.

-
SG is much worse than PW IMO.
Although SG can cause frozen and disable your enemy, the spell is so easy to be either blocked (Sage&ShadowChaser) or
immune to the ailment (marc card).
Not to mention SG/PW damage.

-
Sorc has much better ability in crowd control now.
VE, ARULLO, (DD), and even SPIDER WEB are far better than Sienna Excrate and Frozen(SG).
(Other ailments just slow people’s action so I’d not to take them here.)
As you see, there is no card or other equipment can reduce ailments cause by Sorc.
You can only reduce these with stats, while they have still long duration even after the reduction.

WI is great but it has some flaws that we’ve discussed,
including success rate and damage (when used as defend). And it’s a single target spell, not crowd one.

-
People wear fire armor not because they’re afraid of CR,
but because fire armor is the only thing to lower the damage of DRAGON BREATH.

-
Since MB is not a buff and Sage was given more like the supporting role,
I think it’s not suitable to argue that why it can’t be used on self and worse than Amp.
The MATK adding is just the “side effect” of the skill. It should not be taken as the normal use of MB.

-
Based on the current situation, from those WoE videos,
all I can find is maybe only 1or 2 Warlocks, but there are 10 or 20 times of Sorc spamming their convenient spells,
happily walking around and hunt people down.

I saw a Warlock got killed when he was trying to cast a ~1sec spell.
It’s just 1 sec, but he disappeared from the scene after only few hits.
(Which means he got killed in 1 sec, that's a rough example why WL are forced to invest tons of stat points in DEX.)
Warlock can hardly survive at the environment, while
I also saw the Sorc (the film maker) got hit by a CR, with fire armor he only pot (white potion?) like 5 times.
He’s HP is not even damaged by 20%. (Ex: 8000/40000).

So that’s one of the reasons why WL was still using SG, because everyone’s wearing fire armor.
CR is greatly reduced by 75% for “common”, while PW is only 20%.
This may cause E.advantage, so there’s Land Protector everywhere.
Again, it is not as useless as you (Nretep) thought. it’s actually widely used.

I didn’t saw any ES in the videos Doddler posted.
I guess it’s more difficult than we thought to aim the spell correctly.

WLs do cast slow instead of “fast”.
I do know there is a tiny possibility that when a WL got so much help, a WL can cast a bit faster than a Sorc.
But who’d like to bother those troubles especially when you died so fast?
It’s more practical to “use” a Sorc than a WL, that’s the reality.

Slow cast, Low damage, Easy to be killed. WL is not even dangerous IMO.

-
I used the calculator to make a simple example of the HP difference.

LV150 JOB50 Sorc/WL with Peco card and Matyr card (easy obtaining cards) And both base stas V99

Sorc V99+5(Job Bonus) HP31977
WL V99+4(Job Bonus) HP21193

With +10/+30 foods

Sorc(+10 foods) 33544
WL (+10 foods) 22237

Sorc(+30 foods) 36680
WL (+30 foods) 24325

After adding the effects of Generic’s MHP potion and Sura’s MHP+30% skill, the HP gap will be further widened.
Not to mention it’s almost impossible for WL to get VIT99 due to the strict cast speed requirements.

(Of course WL can use RELEASE, but it’s actually time consuming (15 sec to complete one reload) and thus lose the 50% Amp damage.
Unfortunately WL in the videos can hardly not use release, so their damage is weaker indeed.)

-



IMO it should not because what kind of skill/spell you have that granted you the role,
but the overall ability that determines your character.

We may say the balancing is still going, but they just hit the latest adjustment to the normal KRO server, don’t they?


For now I think Sorc is indeed OP.
(I mean much better than WL, I should use "OP" against Sura's RB) *correction

*I just have an idea,
I’d like to ask Nretep if you can try playing a WL a couple of days and tell the devoted Sorcs and WLs your opinions, like Atum did before.
Or it would be interesting if a WL and a Sorc exchange their character and try to compete each other in Endless Tower (for example).
For some film or text recording we may find some objective thinking.:)

Atum
02-04-2010, 10:48 PM
I agree with pretty much everything you said, however:

For now I think Sorc is indeed OP.
Sorcerer is not overpowered, damage-wise they are pretty fine.
If Sorcerers were weakened it would be hard for them to kill people.
Its the warlocks who are underpowered, however its pretty hard to balance them so they are stronger than sorcerers offensive-wise but not too strong so they dont 1-shot everyone (except with TV since its pretty much supposed to be a 1-hit kill skill).

Shinusagi
02-04-2010, 10:53 PM
Mmhhhhhhhhhhh O_o? UnderPowered Warlocks?

I can't see how can they be better. What do you suggest Atum? Increase their Damage Modifiers? Or reduce their cast/delay instead?

But if you choose any of those posible fixes, then Sorcs will will stay what Locks should be, and Locks will be OP -_-

chap
02-04-2010, 11:03 PM
actually, I prefer that sorcerer, like all other great damage dealers atm, have damage nerfed and WL keeps the actual damage range.
If gravity just increase damage on unbalanced classes, all we'll see is more and more OHKO skills spread on every class.

Atum
02-04-2010, 11:20 PM
Mmhhhhhhhhhhh O_o? UnderPowered Warlocks?

I can't see how can they be better. What do you suggest Atum? Increase their Damage Modifiers? Or reduce their cast/delay instead?
-Every warlock damage skill (ES, JF, CR, CL, TV, CE, DL, HI, Co) should also get the basedamage*(baselevel/100) bonus. Pretty much every recently patched 3rd class has these baselevel bonuses.
-Lower Comets re-use delay to 30 seconds or 1 minute
-Make Comet do full damage on the whole area or at least increase the max damage area to 7x7 cells
-Jack Frost should work on boss monsters
-TV should ignore mdef, just like asura ignores def (its currently a joke-skill vs mvps)
-Chain lighting should deal 3x3~5x5 splash damage and all CL hits should be fully ampable, just like waterball/TV
-Increase element ball life duration to 2~10 min (depending on skillevel)

I think this is the bare minimum that warlocks need and deserve.
These "modest" changes would make them quite fair without having to increase warlocks base damage modifiers (which Nretep protested against (increasing warlocks base damage modifiers)) and without making them overpowered or changing their playing style.
Casting time for warlocks does not need to be changed.

If the people from gravity were really smart they could give mystic amplification only the baselevel*100 bonus (making mAmp do +50%*1.5 = +75% damage at level 150) and dont add this baselevelbonus to any warlock skills, this would make manual casts with magic amp stronger the higher the baselevel is while keeping instantcasts on the same damage as they are now (since instantcasts ignore mAmp).

Lucentos
02-05-2010, 12:10 AM
-Every warlock damage skill (ES, JF, CR, CL, TV, CE, DL, HI, Co) should also get the basedamage*(baselevel/100) bonus. Pretty much every recently patched 3rd class has these baselevel bonuses.
-Lower Comets re-use delay to 30 seconds or 1 minute
-Make Comet do full damage on the whole area or at least increase the max damage area to 7x7 cells
-Jack Frost should work on boss monsters
-TV should ignore mdef, just like asura ignores def (its currently a joke-skill vs mvps)
-Chain lighting should deal 3x3~5x5 splash damage and all CL hits should be fully ampable, just like waterball/TV
-Increase element ball life duration to 2~10 min (depending on skillevel)

I`m fully agree with these changes.

Nretep
02-05-2010, 02:48 AM
SG is much worse than PW IMO.
Although SG can cause frozen and disable your enemy, the spell is so easy to be either blocked (Sage&ShadowChaser) or
immune to the ailment (marc card).
Not to mention SG/PW damage.PW is also blocked by ME and Mael. SG has pushback and Freeze, while you've to tank the mob for the PWs duration

Sorc has much better ability in crowd control now.
VE, ARULLO, (DD), and even SPIDER WEB are far better than Sienna Excrate and Frozen(SG).
(Other ailments just slow people’s action so I’d not to take them here.)
As you see, there is no card or other equipment can reduce ailments cause by Sorc.
You can only reduce these with stats, while they have still long duration even after the reduction.that's just not true
if you think of pvm:
EG, DD and Arullo do simple nothing, while all WLs spells don't differ.

in pvp/ woe
VE and SpiderWeb block the movement as I said it multiple, multiple times before.
DD has an game-breaking status, which is now reduceable by stats and has a pretty low success chance
Arullo costs a gem, and has a nice status, which is canceled on first hit, but increased the damage by 50%

FrostMisty has a almost screen range and [freezing]s with a higher chance than DD. The status does reduce movement, casttime and aspd. and lasts a minumum of 10s
Sienna is something I don't see so often that's why I don't know it throughly. But it's pretty even with Arullo (if arullo really deals aoe status). Both can similar be targeted. SE has faster cast (?), doesn't cost a gem, while the status is "easier" blockable (frocing a certain skill it's really easy, but at least possible), and only increases fire damage, it can be used pvm. The duration of DSleep is easily reduced ... dunno about SC.
WI is the ultimate locking spell with a high success, no cast and no catalyst cost. And can additionally used as defensive one, too.
EStrain has AoE strip. Lasts LONG, unblockable. Dunno the effect in pvm. In RE a missing weapon is devasting.
Bruning i a status that denies casting longer than 3s, which is also really strong. At the same time dealing 1k+ damage each 3s. Dunno the duration anymore.

the "survivability" of both Classes is pretty equal, while WLs are better crowd controllers.

People wear fire armor not because they’re afraid of CR,
but because fire armor is the only thing to lower the damage of DRAGON BREATH.I know. That's pretty unlucky for WLs. But yeah, I also think so that because RKs are strong, Sorcs needs to be nerfed.

Since MB is not a buff and Sage was given more like the supporting role,
I think it’s not suitable to argue that why it can’t be used on self and worse than Amp.
The MATK adding is just the “side effect” of the skill. It should not be taken as the normal use of MB.yeah, but Srocs still get no chance of increasing their damage with transing. So the +50% from mAmp is a too big difference. I still think +30% are enough.

Based on the current situation, from those WoE videos,
all I can find is maybe only 1or 2 Warlocks, but there are 10 or 20 times of Sorc spamming their convenient spells, that "current" situation is 4 weeks old.
there was also a situation were multiple WLs run around and not even a single 3-2 class.

I saw a Warlock got killed when he was trying to cast a ~1sec spell.
It’s just 1 sec, but he disappeared from the scene after only few hits.
(Which means he got killed in 1 sec, that's a rough example why WL are forced to invest tons of stat points in DEX.)
Warlock can hardly survive at the environment, while
I also saw the Sorc (the film maker) got hit by a CR, with fire armor he only pot (white potion?) like 5 times.
He’s HP is not even damaged by 20%. (Ex: 8000/40000).so, he got hit by 8k damage because he wore the right equip. Would the WL be defeated by this hit ?
The attacker that killed the WL wouldn't be able to kill a Sorc ?

I didn’t saw any ES in the videos Doddler posted.
I guess it’s more difficult than we thought to aim the spell correctly.it's just difficult for the Wizard players to use more than a single spell like SG.

WLs do cast slow instead of “fast”.
I do know there is a tiny possibility that when a WL got so much help, a WL can cast a bit faster than a Sorc.
But who’d like to bother those troubles especially when you died so fast?
It’s more practical to “use” a Sorc than a WL, that’s the reality.

Slow cast, Low damage, Easy to be killed. WL is not even dangerous IMO.WLs casts are ~1.5s and Sorcs PW and DD are ~2.5s
While the aftercast is reversed.
Bragi/Strings unbalances this one to the WLs side.

-Every warlock damage skill (ES, JF, CR, CL, TV, CE, DL, HI, Co) should also get the basedamage*(baselevel/100) bonus. Pretty much every recently patched 3rd class has these baselevel bonuses.
-Lower Comets re-use delay to 30 seconds or 1 minute
-Make Comet do full damage on the whole area or at least increase the max damage area to 7x7 cells
-Jack Frost should work on boss monsters
-TV should ignore mdef, just like asura ignores def (its currently a joke-skill vs mvps)
-Chain lighting should deal 3x3~5x5 splash damage and all CL hits should be fully ampable, just like waterball/TV
-Increase element ball life duration to 2~10 min (depending on skillevel)- I think they should give some spells (maybe TV and Comet) the ability to not being increased by mAmp to make them equal for non-trans and trans WL
- comets max damage area should be ~5x5 cells. And I'd prefer a Fire + Wind attribute (wind because it's the complementary to fire)
- TV should not bypass mdef in pvp
- CL should not deal aoe damage each hit -.-. But a ~1s stun (shock) status would be nice

If the people from gravity were really smart they could give mystic amplification only the baselevel*100 bonus (making mAmp do +50%*1.5 = +75% damage at level 150) and dont add this baselevelbonus to any warlock skills, this would make manual casts with magic amp stronger the higher the baselevel is while keeping instantcasts on the same damage as they are now (since instantcasts ignore mAmp).the further you buff mAmp, the worse non-trans WL shall be.
That's why I'm rather suggesting a decrease of mAmp

Louna
02-05-2010, 06:49 AM
Survivability :
50% more hp for sorcerer.
Indulge to keep a high sp pool for EC.
2h staves for WL to achieve decent damage.

Crowd control :
WL can slow down (quag + frozen), Sorcer can stop (VE + Arullo in pvp)
Stone curse effect is useless now (pvp/pvm)

Single target control :
WI throw a char out of the fight (can be damaged only with "divine" attack, ghost attack break the prison)
Fiber stop the movement (can be damaged with anything, fire attack break the fiber)

Mob killing :
WL main killing skill are SG (DoT) and CR (burst)
Sorc main killing skill is PW (DoT)
PW is far superior to SG (better dps, better cast/delay) but without pushback (throwing monster on you/out of the AoE) and frost (making monster immune to your skill). If you want a protective push back effect, use a Walk or FW.
Amped CR + Released CR (or ES) is probably the biggest burst magic damage in RO, and has nice side effect. Hard to throw (long preparation time), but worth it.

So :
Survivability : Sorc are superior.
Crowd Control : Different job. Both are good.
Single target control : Again, different job. Both have pro and cons.
Mob Killing : Sorc win the DoT/dps contest, WL win the burst contest.

PvP/WoE wise, a Lock can't survive without a party (devo/bragi/sacrament). But party have a big sign "USE RAMPAGE BLASTER HERE" on them... On the other hand Sorc can solo. No wonder why Lock are a rare sight.

Atum
02-05-2010, 06:57 AM
SG is much worse than PW IMO.
Although SG can cause frozen and disable your enemy, the spell is so easy to be either blocked (Sage&ShadowChaser) or
immune to the ailment (marc card).
Not to mention SG/PW damage.PW is also blocked by ME and Mael. SG has pushback and Freeze, while you've to tank the mob for the PWs duration
On targets that can be pushed back SG only deals 575%~1725% damage max (except undeads) because targets that can be pushed back will freeze usually on the first to third hit.
Most monsters that dont freeze are bosses and bosses cant be pushed back, wizards have to tank them the same way sorcerers do for PW.

SE has faster cast (?), doesn't cost a gem, while the status is "easier" blockable (frocing a certain skill it's really easy, but at least possible), and only increases fire damage, it can be used pvm.
Are you talking about Sienna Exe when you say "SE"?
It costs 2 red gemstones.

WI is the ultimate locking spell with a high success, no cast and no catalyst cost. And can additionally used as defensive one, too.
White imprison level 5has quite a low success rate on both enemy monsters and the warlock, i usually have to use it 5~10 times before it succeeds.

WLs casts are ~1.5s and Sorcs PW and DD are ~2.5s
While the aftercast is reversed.
Bragi/Strings unbalances this one to the WLs side.
Sacrament however makes it pretty easy for sorcerers to cast skills very fast.
Both classes need support in order to do really fast combos, i think this is pretty balanced.

Hybrid_Addict
02-05-2010, 07:28 AM
well yes the weakest possible option is viable if you prefer that, however it doesn't scale well when you compare one class at its worst stats to another at its best.

Actually I want to see if PW would still be that strong on a hybrid (still with 130 INT on a Sorcerer with bless... I think there's not too much difference... only in the hundreds...)

oddler
02-05-2010, 07:37 AM
Well....a great amount of posts are saying Warlocks are very powerfull with support(bragi,bishop) but in the other hand i see some posts saying about gravity changing classes making that classes with more versability and less especific. If all this is true then make the Warlock a less party dependent like sorceres and all another classes are.
I think with this the discussion between locks and all other classes can stop. =D.
And another thing i can't agree is with Tetra Vortex and Comet wich have to be the ultimate magic skills are the useless skills.(You dont see warlocks using that skills in the vids)

Nretep
02-05-2010, 07:41 AM
Survivability :
50% more hp for sorcerer.
Indulge to keep a high sp pool for EC.
2h staves for WL to achieve decent damage.Indulge also eats up 10% HP and skillpoints. The more SP you have the more is consumed by EC
2h staffs are optional. WLs can wear every (?) staff, sorcs can + more. So it's an optional bonus, and not a restriction

Crowd control :
WL can slow down (quag + frozen), Sorcer can stop (VE + Arullo in pvp)
Stone curse effect is useless now (pvp/pvm)SC is uselsss ? Then Arullo is, too.
VE can be walked through (woe) and is buggy, if you try to stack it. Quag has no limitated and is unavoidable

Single target control :
WI throw a char out of the fight (can be damaged only with "divine" attack, ghost attack break the prison)
Fiber stop the movement (can be damaged with anything, fire attack break the fiber)fibered targets can use skills for the full duration and don't get 2k damage when i ends.
Costs catalyst and useless skillpoints

Mob killing :
WL main killing skill are SG (DoT) and CR (burst)
Sorc main killing skill is PW (DoT)
PW is far superior to SG (better dps, better cast/delay) but without pushback (throwing monster on you/out of the AoE) and frost (making monster immune to your skill). If you want a protective push back effect, use a Walk or FW.Walk doesn't have pushback. And yes, without element PW deals more damage with same (?) casttime. While SG can freeze, you also lock the enemies and can use amplified skills (wind).
PW has fixed reUse, WL has a normal aftercast, which can be reduced. PW doesn't have a long aftercast.

Talking about 2nd class skill vs 3rd class skill, they're pretty balanced.

Frost = DD status
Freeze = SG status
Freezing = Misty status

PvP/WoE wise, a Lock can't survive without a party (devo/bragi/sacrament). On the other hand Sorc can solo. No wonder why Lock are a rare sight.solo they're pretty equal, while WL is "earlier". But WL receives more benefits from a party since cast has a fixed part while aftercast not.

On targets that can be pushed back SG only deals 575%~1725% damage max (except undeads) because targets that can be pushed back will freeze usually on the first to third hit.
Most monsters that dont freeze are bosses and bosses cant be pushed back, wizards have to tank them the same way sorcerers do for PW.pushback + frozen, element, 15 hits.

as I said above

Are you talking about Sienna Exe when you say "SE"?
It costs 2 red gemstones.wtf ?
with 1 RG, Sienna and Arullo would be equal. Dunno about 2 RGs ... what about Link ?

WI is the ultimate locking spell with a high success, no cast and no catalyst cost. And can additionally used as defensive one, too.White imprison level 5has quite a low success rate on both enemy monsters and the warlock, i usually have to use it 5~10 times before it succeeds.no cast time, "no" delay on miss, unblockable, unreduceable. I think it's still unfair for enemies.

Sacrament however makes it pretty easy for sorcerers to cast skills very fast.
Both classes need support in order to do really fast combos, i think this is pretty balanced.PW has a longer cast than most WL skills. So with same reduction, WL skills will always win. While PW has a shorter aftercast than those. That's why it's pretty "balanced", but the WLs are "earlier".
With super strings + high stats + sacra only 10% baseCast and reUse is remaining. reUse of the skills are similar (?) but baseCast of PW is higher. That's why WLs benefit a bit more.

Elie
02-05-2010, 08:04 AM
cmon..

Sorcs has been nerfed already just for warlocks

sorcs are alwaysadjusting for the Locks...
and yet

some still wants to nerf Sorcs skills

it has always been...
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years

Locks are glass cannons
what they need are FEW reduction in casting and delays
spread evenly the Comets aoe damage

and please mdef ignoring TV isnt the way...do not compare it to asura for Pete's sake

Sorcs disables can be reduced by stats and DOES NOT last that long
VE and Web halts movement only...please do not consider Sorcs disable a total disable...

how about WI...very high success chance...lasts long and has damage?
can be recasted that renews the duration...

Atum
02-05-2010, 08:21 AM
It has always been...
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years
But so far the sage class never competed against the wizard class in dealing damage, crowd control or area damage.
Locks are glass cannons
what they need are FEW reduction in casting and delays
spread evenly the Comets aoe damage
[...]
and please mdef ignoring TV isnt the way...do not compare it to asura for Pete's sake
[...]
how about WI...very high success chance...lasts long and has damage?
can be recasted that renews the duration...
Warlocks dont need faster castings, faster castings without help (strings or sacrament) would be too powerful.

Making TV ignore mdef is, in my opinion, the only thing that could make TV worth using/spending the skillpoints/doing the preparations/having such a long re-use delay.
Raising TVs basedamage would make it too powerful against other players while still being weak vs mvps
Making TV ignore mdef however would keep it on about the same level as it is now against other players (still survivable with some element resistance) because usually players dont stack alot of mdef while ignoring mdef would make it worth using against mvps.
What did you have in mind as change for TV?

WI does not have a high success chance, as i said above it can take 5~10 tries to use it on enemies or myself, it took me like 30 seconds total to successfully use WI 5 on a scaraba monster. that is not a high success rate.

Hybrid_Addict
02-05-2010, 08:35 AM
It has always been...
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years
But so far the sage class never competed against the wizard class in dealing damage, crowd control or area damage.


Sage link made them quite better.

A bit faster casting, ignore MDEF (and a bit longer delay).

Comet would get the same thing (although making the sweet spot larger).

Elie
02-05-2010, 08:56 AM
It has always been...
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years
But so far the sage class never competed against the wizard class in dealing damage, crowd control or area damage.
Locks are glass cannons
what they need are FEW reduction in casting and delays
spread evenly the Comets aoe damage
[...]
and please mdef ignoring TV isnt the way...do not compare it to asura for Pete's sake
[...]
how about WI...very high success chance...lasts long and has damage?
can be recasted that renews the duration...



sage class did compete on dealing damage on a single target

TV ignoring a portion of mdef is fine...but not totally the mdef as a whole...

Prodigy
02-05-2010, 09:05 AM
It has always been...
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years
But so far the sage class never competed against the wizard class in dealing damage, crowd control or area damage.


Sage link made them quite better.


Sage Link isn't viable to WoE with though. Just ask all the hindsighters who tried. Plus I think it was a bad idea to make one skill completely rely on another class in order to be used.

So far, the whole arguement has been mainly about who can do the most damage and kill the most targets in the shortest amount of time. The problem is, one class would have to admit that they should do less damage. Technically, it should be the Sorcs that do less damage. But then locks have some disables that the sorcs would love to have. But if we gave those disables to the sorcs, they will be able easily to stop huge crowds which would make them OP in disabling (and we all know how preRE, people complained how OP support scholars are).

Anyways, I do think that Comet's center should be increased to at least 5x5. That or make Comet somehow work with WI to allow warlocks to set up the small center radius.

Hybrid_Addict
02-05-2010, 09:07 AM
Actually Scholars did the most DPS (single-target) back then... [Hindsight and a bunch of equipment gave us our edge in DPS].

Nretep
02-05-2010, 09:48 AM
Actually Scholars did the most DPS (single-target) back then... [Hindsight and a bunch of equipment gave us our edge in DPS].and you only need to waste a stat- and skill build. As well as low mdef targets at close range without the wrong armor/ wrong reductions.
And prepared Scholar with other classes buffs.

Prodigy
02-05-2010, 09:55 AM
Actually Scholars did the most DPS (single-target) back then... [Hindsight and a bunch of equipment gave us our edge in DPS].and you only need to waste a stat- and skill build. As well as low mdef targets at close range without the wrong armor/ wrong reductions.
And prepared Scholar with other classes buffs.
You forgot "and make sure there's no one around that can Flying Kick or Dispell you." Ironically, Hindsight itself cannot be dispelled, but the buff that makes hindsight useable can be dispelled. Make Sage Link undispellable and I'd be happy to use a SF/Hindsight Sorc.

Louna
02-05-2010, 10:36 AM
SC is uselsss ? Then Arullo is, too.BSET AGRUMNET EVAR!
[Skill name] is [adjective]? Then [other skill name] is, too.
Who want to try?
[/troll]

You keep using the same (wrong) arguments, and even when someone try to say that Sorc are fine, you're ruining their argument.
Nice job making all the forum hating you and the sorc class bro.

Clogon
02-05-2010, 10:55 AM
@Nretep:
I think she means normal Stone Curse which IS useless and not the Sienna Execrate's stone curse which is exceptionnaly good if it ever hits... Unlike Allurio though, its 4/5 chance gets reduced to 1/5 from agi alone.

Nretep
02-05-2010, 11:18 AM
@Nretep:
I think she means normal Stone Curse which IS useless and not the Sienna Execrate's stone curse which is exceptionnaly good if it ever hits... Unlike Allurio though, its 4/5 chance gets reduced to 1/5 from agi alone.Crowd control :
WL can slow down (quag + frozen), Sorcer can stop (VE + Arullo in pvp)
Stone curse effect is useless now (pvp/pvm)Either Louna is comparing a status to a skill, or it's like I guessed.

Comparing Sienna with Arullo. And I replied to that

Elie
02-05-2010, 11:19 AM
arullo really is useless against high int targets
it would only last for about 3 secs

with 3 secs...you will not be able to put out a decent damaging Sorc spell..
there would be no chain to it if evr.

Hybrid_Addict
02-05-2010, 11:31 AM
Sage Link isn't viable to WoE with though. Just ask all the hindsighters who tried. Plus I think it was a bad idea to make one skill completely rely on another class in order to be used.


:pif: Their fault for smoking the Sage Spirit...

Arullo - 3 seconds reduced by INT (I need to check the % in the compilation again)
Sienna Execrate - 80% and 18 seconds. The petrification status's duration cannot be reduced.

Nretep
02-05-2010, 12:31 PM
Arullo - 3 seconds reduced by INT (I need to check the % in the compilation again)
Sienna Execrate - 80% and 18 seconds. The petrification status's duration cannot be reduced.no, it's 3s with high int. (Arullo)

Louna
02-05-2010, 12:32 PM
@Nretep:
I think she means normal Stone Curse which IS useless and not the Sienna Execrate's stone curse which is exceptionnaly good if it ever hits... Unlike Allurio though, its 4/5 chance gets reduced to 1/5 from agi alone.Crowd control :
WL can slow down (quag + frozen), Sorcer can stop (VE + Arullo in pvp)
Stone curse effect is useless now (pvp/pvm)Either Louna is comparing a status to a skill, or it's like I guessed.

Comparing Sienna with Arullo. And I replied to thatWas talking (not comparing, not even talking about anything else than SC is this sentence) about the status (that why I write effect).
And yes, I forgot that the petrification effect from SE is 18s fixed, not as short as the Stone Curse skill.
So SE is more or less useless in PvM (gem cost for low chance) but probably semi decent in WoE... To bad it has many counter/cure =/
BTW, if you SE an petrified target, what happen on a success? Nothing, cure petrification, renew the 18s duration?

Rumm
02-05-2010, 01:08 PM
Making TV ignore mdef is, in my opinion, the only thing that could make TV worth using/spending the skillpoints/doing the preparations/having such a long re-use delay.
Raising TVs basedamage would make it too powerful against other players while still being weak vs mvps
Making TV ignore mdef however would keep it on about the same level as it is now against other players (still survivable with some element resistance) because usually players dont stack alot of mdef while ignoring mdef would make it worth using against mvps.
What did you have in mind as change for TV?

Well its not tv thats worthless on mvps, its most/all magic skills are worthless on mvps. That's hardly a nerf on just warlock over sorc. Lower mvp mdef is an easy fix...unless they really just dont want attack magic characters to mvp:(...which seems the case =/. Tho i can see it working like asura and completely ignoring mdef...an interesting direction would be if as they pushed 2-2 classes towards pvp as equally as they pushed 2-1 classes towards MvP ability..

Nretep
02-05-2010, 01:51 PM
So SE is more or less useless in PvM (gem cost for low chance) but probably semi decent in WoE... To bad it has many counter/cure =/
BTW, if you SE an petrified target, what happen on a success? Nothing, cure petrification, renew the 18s duration?low on arguments ?
Sienna is useless in PVM ? Yeah, Arullo is much more effective.

Slapzech
02-05-2010, 03:41 PM
(...)
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years
(...)


O rly?

If we speak of "years" of roles of classes, then You forgot to add that the Sage class was "for Years" an AoE magic defense/support, not damage dealer. Yet You conveniently forgot about party role of Sage and only Forced it upon Wizard archetype.

Louna
02-05-2010, 03:51 PM
So SE is more or less useless in PvM (gem cost for low chance) but probably semi decent in WoE... To bad it has many counter/cure =/
BTW, if you SE an petrified target, what happen on a success? Nothing, cure petrification, renew the 18s duration?low on arguments ?
Sienna is useless in PVM ? Yeah, Arullo is much more effective.
I don't try to argue.
I can't care less of your repeated argumenting.
Can you quote me saying "Arullo is better than SE", "Arullo is usefull in PvM"?
Did I say "Nerf the sorc" or "Sorc are OP"?
Sorcerer and Locks have different jobs, and both shine in different way, however thats what i was saying, too.

Clogon
02-05-2010, 04:58 PM
@Nretep:
Stone curse effect (from cards and weapons) is the same as that of the skill. SE is just special.

@Louna:
If you SE someone that is already petrified, you will free them. Note that SE will affect you if you are in the AoE too. So I think it might affect allies as well.

Junn
02-05-2010, 07:22 PM
What do you think of my opinion?
Why not make warlock AOE massive damage ... Sorcers have AOE damage better than a warlock ...
I do not understand why the gravity invented 20 skill points (sumon waterball, fire, wind, earth) they only cause more damage (which is still ridiculously low)
only to last longer ...
Sometimes I wonder, because the gravity simply not done the damage of spells "Warlock" (not wiz) get the bonus damage from elemental sphere?
EX summon fire ball 5 300% damage with fire ... why not 300% with spells of the element fire warlock??
Crimson Rock 2800 => 8400 with 5 spheres ....
I do not know if they disappear when someone gets close to the warlock, I saw this happen in a video ... I just think that to happen to warlock is so surreal sorcerers AOE DMG causing more than warlocks ...
Just my opinion
If it gets too strong, it can also be amplified ... perhaps to use a spell of the same element warlock lose X number of spheres
Wonder what the guys think about this suggestion, unbalanced, bad?
Well I guess means unfair sorcerer Tues damage Aoe skills, at no cost in tree skills, with damages in excess of warlocks, and warlocks have 20 job points useless ...

Prodigy
02-05-2010, 08:41 PM
As far as the damage goes, it can only go 2 ways.
1) One of the two classes decide to take a damage nerf or
2) One of the two classes get a damage buff

Personally, seeing as how magic has been shafted for a long time now (both PreRenewal and Renewal to some extent), it would be nice to see magic attacks to be dangerous killing skills again so I would go for option 2. For the sake of the Sorc vs Warlock argument, it would be nice to buff lock's damage without nerfing Sorcs. But then the other classes would complain about how OP magic is.

Sidenote: Looking at most of the other RPGs and MMORPGs, isn't it the archetype that the "Mage" class generally has the highest damage (usually burst or sometimes dps) among all the classes? How come that doesn't hold true for RO. Here, magic is something to make you pot more than usual but still pottable nonetheless.

CrimsonFlame
02-05-2010, 11:27 PM
Sidenote: Looking at most of the other RPGs and MMORPGs, isn't it the archetype that the "Mage" class generally has the highest damage (usually burst or sometimes dps) among all the classes? How come that doesn't hold true for RO. Here, magic is something to make you pot more than usual but still pottable nonetheless.

Generally in other MMO's and traditional RPG's the "mage" class characters are the most powerful in the game offensively (both area and single target skills) but retain the classic 0-defensiveness. Glass Canon is the way of the mage...what it comes down to, is that it just seems that Gravity devs simply do not like magic classes. They are way too easy to counter in RO (as opposed to other games) and tend to share either damage potential or area damage with 1 or more classes. In a game like RO, where there are so many different classes, you'd think offensive magic would stand out since there are a LOT more physical classes. This is not the case due to RO's really crappy potting system. Pots (among other healing items) are WAY too spammable in RO, and this is what kills any classes that can't OHKO in WoE and PvP. There is also way too much elemental gear in RO.

Nretep
02-05-2010, 11:40 PM
@Nretep:
Stone curse effect (from cards and weapons) is the same as that of the skill. SE is just special.

@Louna:
If you SE someone that is already petrified, you will free them. Note that SE will affect you if you are in the AoE too. So I think it might affect allies as well.yeah, so Sorcs SC got worse and WLs got a replacement

That's what Louna meant. It wasn't an informative question, but a sarcams one, pretending Sienna sucks while Arullo is uber.

Well I guess means unfair sorcerer Tues damage Aoe skills, at no cost in tree skills, with damages in excess of warlocks, and warlocks have 20 job points useless ...SOrc tree isn't only pretty simple, but also small, yes. But they the Sage tree is pretty big. Getting SP manipulation, ME, Endows, HD and possibly mindbreak is not possible.

Elie
02-06-2010, 12:30 AM
(...)
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years
(...)


O rly?

If we speak of "years" of roles of classes, then You forgot to add that the Sage class was "for Years" an AoE magic defense/support, not damage dealer. Yet You conveniently forgot about party role of Sage and only Forced it upon Wizard archetype.

duh? im talking about solo leveling here

Sage class commonly level solo
that's why large damage single targeted spell was given to Profs

wiz (almost) always needs a support for it to lvl faster

and im not implying that Sorc needs to have a great AoE damage

may you please read posts properly before pointing something on someone..

your misunderstanding, things that people here seems to deny...


As far as the damage goes, it can only go 2 ways.
1) One of the two classes decide to take a damage nerf or
2) One of the two classes get a damage buff



Sorcs already got nerfed by how many times can i say?
and were Locks never buffed..?

but still...it isnt enough for the Locks
they still lack something

Gravity buffed Locks incompletely...

and again nerfing Sorc would not solve Locks problem...

PanzeMagier
02-06-2010, 12:46 AM
Basically every observation and suggestion put forward is bad if it isn't agreeable to that person (wonder who he is:rolleyes:).

C'mon, is it really a logical argument to say that it's ok to have a useless skill because you also have a useless skill?

I'm still craving for that answer to the main question: "If the sorc can do the same/better damage than warlock with still nice supporting/disabling/magic manipulating skills plus the up-coming summon system, then what will the warlocks offer to have a place in a party or guild?"

Magical AOE Damage? You got that covered
Crowd Control? You got that covered
Instant Cast? Load. Release. Stop. Wait. Reload. Release. Stop. Wait. Reload yeah.. really efficient.
Easy Early Stage Leveling? Yeah, what an advantage. Basically everyone can level easy given proper equips, player skills, right maps. And what about the end game? So the advantage stops there huh.
Party Support Skills? yeah! oh wait, we have none. And did I say u got that covered?
But there's still that single target TV with the high re-use delay, preparation and low damage on high-mdef mvps. So, yeah.

If you don't see the problem, then it's your problem. :D

Sorc Nerf, WL buff or what have you. As long as everyone has a place in the game without anyone overshadowing the other I'm fine with it. Right now, it's just isn't the case.

Slapzech
02-06-2010, 02:02 AM
(...)
Wiz class is a party dependent job pls do not deny that fact
sage class has been solo for years
(...)


O rly?

If we speak of "years" of roles of classes, then You forgot to add that the Sage class was "for Years" an AoE magic defense/support, not damage dealer. Yet You conveniently forgot about party role of Sage and only Forced it upon Wizard archetype.

duh? im talking about solo leveling here

Sage class commonly level solo
that's why large damage single targeted spell was given to Profs

wiz (almost) always needs a support for it to lvl faster

and im not implying that Sorc needs to have a great AoE damage

may you please read posts properly before pointing something on someone..

your misunderstanding, things that people here seems to deny...


:facepalm:

I'd really like to know what makes people think Wizard can't level solo.
Magma Dungeon, Glast Heim Severs, Clock Tower, Turtle Dungeon, Niffleheim... I leveles in so many places solo as a Wiz/HW, and met other Wizard players in many different places, that I seriously don't know why do people spread the lie that Wiz "almost" always needs a support to level.
Wizard class output simply scales with support better than other classes.

So sorry, I still won't let You use just the immortal "party class" char against Warlocks, and ignoring the same for sorcerers.

Nretep
02-06-2010, 05:01 AM
I'd really like to know what makes people think Wizard can't level solo.
Magma Dungeon, Glast Heim Severs, Clock Tower, Turtle Dungeon, Niffleheim... I leveles in so many places solo as a Wiz/HW, and met other Wizard players in many different places, that I seriously don't know why do people spread the lie that Wiz "almost" always needs a support to level.
Wizard class output simply scales with support better than other classes.

So sorry, I still won't let You use just the immortal "party class" char against Warlocks, and ignoring the same for sorcerers.yes, exc freecast and hindsight, wiz could do at least exactly the same as Sages. But they could do even more.

The difference wasn't the ability to solo (since Wiz were stronger in that part too), but the ability of being usefull for a party, which Sages didn't have.

Louna
02-06-2010, 05:35 AM
That's what Louna meant. It wasn't an informative question, but a sarcams one, pretending Sienna sucks while Arullo is uber.You Nretep. Me Louna. I know what I mean, you don't.
If you want to show what I mean, quote me. Don't use other people name freely.

Nretep
02-06-2010, 06:25 AM
That's what Louna meant. It wasn't an informative question, but a sarcams one, pretending Sienna sucks while Arullo is uber.You Nretep. Me Louna. I know what I mean, you don't.
If you want to show what I mean, quote me. Don't use other people name freely.dito

Seraphiel
02-06-2010, 07:14 AM
I really admire that you guys still keep on arguing, which job is OP and what should be nerfed. And no matter what Gravity does, you will never be satisfied. Warlock lovers will keep saying that Sorc needs to be nerfed and Lock buffed while Sorc lovers will say something completely different. I don't see an end to this thread. That's why I don't like this kind of topics. Anyway, I will show you my point of view; I neither "love" Sorcerers nor Warlocks so my opinion will be more or less objective; and you can agree with it or not, I don't really care. Sorcerers were already nerfed; say what you want but there is a big difference between Pre-Nerfed PW and other skills to the current ones; and they aren't OP in any way, they; Sage, Professor/Scholar; always had some offensive skills and many supportive, much more than HWs so I don't know why some of you keep on saying that Warlocks are less supportive than Sorcerers, it has ALWAYS been that way. The thing that Gravity needs to do is buff some warlocks' skills and change their skill tree; but not necessarily. By "buff" I mean, reduction of casting time and slight increase/change in damage formula, we don't want to have 1hit K.O AoE skills, and many of you sound as if you wanted it. Anyway, to cut a long story short, buff warlocks, and leave sorcs as they are until summons are available, Peace & Love! :D

Slapzech
02-06-2010, 08:10 AM
Implying Endows, Magnetic Earth, AoE buffs and SW are useless for party members



:dum:

StarShadow
02-06-2010, 08:17 AM
I think it will be good if we can make a list of what we think should be nerfed/buffed in a broader extend/indication first.

Maybe stop arguing with other's opinions for few days and just try to post what you think should be adjusted.

for example:

WL:
<back ground description>
The current situation makes WL overshadowed by Sorc's DoT spells and their original supporting/disturbing spells.
Some spells are underpowered and hard to use. The lenthy cast and low HP also makes WLs hard to survive in renewal WoE.
The skill tree is also difficult for WL to acquire spells compare with the easy-getting tree of Sorc.

<agreed buff/nerf suggestions>
WLs should have better burst damage abilities, all WL spells should get a minor bonus from their INT or job/base level.

Amp should be a bonus skill instead of "a must" for having comparable damage with Sorc or even other classes.
Increase the basic modifier of some WL spells a bit.

High Mdef target (i.e. MVPs) are too hard to damage.
Give high end WL spells some Mdef piercing function.

Sorc:
(Same bg description and nerf/buff suggestions.)

Here we may use description words (greatly/mid/small/wide/narrow...etc) and "+ increase/- decrease" instead of precise numbers or scales.
The discussion for scale and certain skills should be talked after we have reach a common consensus to some degree.

That way we can gather the adjustments which most of us agree.
And maybe place it as the first post of the thread (dunno how to say it specifically), make it easier for people to keep up with our discussion.
It also help us focus on some main issues instead of discuss some minor points separately.

Quite annoying keep arguing little points here and there, cause it's really hard to change people's mind/acknowledgement.


Just a idea that I'd like to see we devoted magicians get forward.
What do you guys say?

Nretep
02-06-2010, 09:02 AM
Implying Endows, Magnetic Earth, AoE buffs and SW are useless for party members:dum:were the link gone ?

The lenthy cast and low HP also makes WLs hard to survive in renewal WoE.Sorcs cast is longer

The skill tree is also difficult for WL to acquire spells compare with the easy-getting tree of Sorc.SageTree is harder. And you've to sacrifice one path.

WLs should have better burst damage abilities, all WL spells should get a minor bonus from their INT or job/base level.

Amp should be a bonus skill instead of "a must" for having comparable damage with Sorc or even other classes.
Increase the basic modifier of some WL spells a bit.

High Mdef target (i.e. MVPs) are too hard to damage.Give high end WL spells some Mdef piercing function.so. Speed up WLs casts further.
Increase the instant-geous damage.
All spells should get 150% damage with 150 int.
Amp shall stay 150% damage
Increase base modifiers of all spells
bypass most of the MDef

sounds like. "Make WL deal 250% DPS of the current version"

Sfyn
02-06-2010, 09:42 AM
IMO, Sorcerers were already nerfed and they seem fine to me now. I think just giving some baselevel bonus to Warlock main damage skills like many other skills from 3rd classes will suffice.

Thunderbird
02-06-2010, 10:59 AM
IMO do this:

For both classes:
- Adjust Stone Curse to be useable again
- If Safety Wall is destroyed let it at least absorb the rest damage (hi, asura?)
- Lower the ridiculous high mdef of bosses

For Sorc:
- Lower the duration of endows to 2-3 minutes, but make it needing no catalyst anymore.
- Change those AOE splash damage skills like Storm Gust and Psyschic Wave to be blocked be the full area of Magnetic Earth
- Maybe give hindsight level 5+ some usefull spells
- dunnow, sorc players think of something else xD


For Warlock:
- Lower the Balls max level to 1 or let them do something usefull at higher levels. Increase the duration they stay.
- Redo Stasis from scratch
- Add Release level 1 as requirement of Reading Spellbook, (maybe remove it from the requirements of Recognized Spell).
- Let chain lightning do a status effect like "shocked - can't move for 1 second"
- Let comet do full damage at least at 5x5, better 7x7. Don't lower the reuse delay, but buff it's damage to be a real killer spell.
- Increase the sucess chance of White Imprison, if used on yourself.
- Maybe give Drain Life and Marh of the Abyss 3x3 AOE (just for the fun, wanna see more warlocks with these skills xD)

Nretep
02-06-2010, 11:09 AM
- If Safety Wall is destroyed let it at least absorb the rest damage (hi, asura?)no, it's not safetywall that's weak, but asura too strong.

- Change those AOE splash damage skills like Storm Gust and Psyschic Wave to be blocked be the full area of Magnetic Earthand also block DB, and all magic skills with splash.

- Let comet do full damage at least at 5x5, better 7x7. Don't lower the reuse delay, but buff it's damage to be a real killer spell.keep the cast, base damage. Lower the reUse and let it crit

- Increase the sucess chance of White Imprison, if used on yourself.no

- Maybe give Drain Life 3x3 AOEno

Lucentos
02-06-2010, 11:19 AM
IMHO ME should grant players on it immunity to any kind of magic multitarget hitting attacks(All magic with AoE and Splash, Line of Effect as well, Dragon Breath too), but all physical multitarget hitting attacks(Like Arrow Storm, SpreadShot, Desperado and Arm Cannon) should be able to do their work.

About SW - imho one-time per SW Millenium Shield effect is fine.

Thunderbird
02-06-2010, 01:53 PM
- If Safety Wall is destroyed let it at least absorb the rest damage (hi, asura?)no, it's not safetywall that's weak, but asura too strong.

Nope, in pvp/woe asura dmg is fine. Only in mvping it's by far too strong.
It just sucks that one of the counters got ripped off.
Where is the problem with absorbing over damage?

- Change those AOE splash damage skills like Storm Gust and Psyschic Wave to be blocked be the full area of Magnetic Earthand also block DB, and all magic skills with splash.

keep the cast, base damage. Lower the reUse and let it crit

Nah..that isn't fitting the warlock class imo. Making it a BIG BANG you can only use from time to time is better.


- Increase the sucess chance of White Imprison, if used on yourself.no
yes! It doesn't make sense as defending skill if you need 5 seconds to activate it.


- Maybe give Drain Life 3x3 AOEno
Why not?
If you look at the skill tree, you will find out that it would just be an alternative to other skills. That's why most Warlocks will not skill it.
It would just widen the possible skill builds, there is nothing bad in that.

Lucentos
02-06-2010, 01:57 PM
IMHO White Imprison 90% chance of activation on yourself is fine, as it allow Warlock to survive some dangerous attacks most of time.
And for Comet... IMHO it should be some kind of nuclear missile-like skill, it`s animation should be changed to single large meteor falling on desired cell and nuke victims on 5x5 Area, one shotting 30-k HP classes easily, hovewer only with MAmp and without ability to be released. (Mini-nuke mushroom graphic effect and explosion wave effect is also appreciated).

Thunderbird
02-06-2010, 02:16 PM
IMHO White Imprison 90% chance of activation on yourself is fine, as it allow Warlock to survive some dangerous attacks most of time.
And for Comet... IMHO it should be some kind of nuclear missile-like skill, it`s animation should be changed to single large meteor falling on desired cell and nuke victims on 5x5 Area, one shotting 30-k HP classes easily, hovewer only with MAmp and without ability to be released. (Mini-nuke mushroom graphic effect and explosion wave effect is also appreciated).

*signed*

Nretep
02-06-2010, 03:04 PM
Nope, in pvp/woe asura dmg is fine. Only in mvping it's by far too strong.
It just sucks that one of the counters got ripped off.
Where is the problem with absorbing over damage?Asura is supposed to be the ultimate skill from Ragnarok. So killing targets in SWall is fine for me

Would you like a skill 3 classes have that simply negates Comet and TV ?

Nah..that isn't fitting the warlock class imo. Making it a BIG BANG you can only use from time to time is better.yes, but AoE one shot is too much, no matter the casttime. So let is crit, crits do one-shot with a high success, while non crit "only" does huge damage. But one shot skills (exc asura) aren't supposed to exist

yes! It doesn't make sense as defending skill if you need 5 seconds to activate it. it doesn't make sense that you can target yourself at all. Sorc can't even dispell himself.
And high success on an instant, no-cost divine protection it not supposed to be a skill for the "so-called supposed to be the most offensive class".

Why not?
If you look at the skill tree, you will find out that it would just be an alternative to other skills. That's why most Warlocks will not skill it.
It would just widen the possible skill builds, there is nothing bad in that.problem is that drain life already is strong enough. it makes a heal clip useless, because you gain much more with drain life (esp with icewall). 3x3 would mean a full-heal for WLs

Thunderbird
02-06-2010, 04:21 PM
Nope, in pvp/woe asura dmg is fine. Only in mvping it's by far too strong.
It just sucks that one of the counters got ripped off.
Where is the problem with absorbing over damage?Asura is supposed to be the ultimate skill from Ragnarok. So killing targets in SWall is fine for me
Then it shouldn't be spamable. Ultimate skills are for rare use.


Would you like a skill 3 classes have that simply negates Comet and TV ?
If its like that safety wall - sure, no problem. Only one cell covered, the class can counter it with casting another instant cast skill before (Pneuma).


Nah..that isn't fitting the warlock class imo. Making it a BIG BANG you can only use from time to time is better.yes, but AoE one shot is too much, no matter the casttime. So let is crit, crits do one-shot with a high success, while non crit "only" does huge damage. But one shot skills (exc asura) aren't supposed to exist
With that long cast time there are enough ways to counter it. I see no problem here. Let us be the destructive class we are supposed to be.


yes! It doesn't make sense as defending skill if you need 5 seconds to activate it. it doesn't make sense that you can target yourself at all. Sorc can't even dispell himself.
And high success on an instant, no-cost divine protection it not supposed to be a skill for the "so-called supposed to be the most offensive class".
Fine, skip that and make us so offensive, so we can kill chars before they reach us. Because if they reach us we are dead.
Oh...Every class got strong range attacks or super walk speed now.


Why not?
If you look at the skill tree, you will find out that it would just be an alternative to other skills. That's why most Warlocks will not skill it.
It would just widen the possible skill builds, there is nothing bad in that.problem is that drain life already is strong enough. it makes a heal clip useless, because you gain much more with drain life (esp with icewall). 3x3 would mean a full-heal for WLs

Yes, every Warlock will give up Tetra Vortex for Drain Life, because he don't need to buy an heal clip then!
On normal targets it's far away from full heal, just icewall is a bit cheat - that may be deactivated.
I think the skill would be a nice alternative then.

Nretep
02-06-2010, 04:43 PM
Asura is supposed to be the ultimate skill from Ragnarok. So killing targets in SWall is fine for meThen it shouldn't be spamable. Ultimate skills are for rare use.that's what it's supposed to be. And it's been like that until rebirth classes came out

With that long cast time there are enough ways to counter it. I see no problem here. Let us be the destructive class we are supposed to be.you cannot see casts when you enter the screen.
yeah, destructive, but not "kills a whole guild all by himself"

Fine, skip that and make us so offensive, so we can kill chars before they reach us. Because if they reach us we are dead.you just said, that you want to be a destructive class. Now you complain about bein easily killed ?

On normal targets it's far away from full heal, just icewall is a bit cheat - that may be deactivated.it would be when it's 9x9. The success and HP gain got pushed so much, that the skill is fine now. But since it's defensive, most WLs won't get it.

Shinusagi
02-06-2010, 08:21 PM
I still does not understand why the people who choise play with SAGES / PROFES (a SUPPORT CLASS damn god, with also offensive skills but not much) now want to play like WIZZARDS , it's more like:

"Oh... I like the cool look of Profes but I really want to be a Wiz..." and they now say that their support skills are shit, also nobody wants it, when the true is a Sage is always needed because of their support skills

The Sage users really wanted to be Wizzes, and they prefeer all the offensive skills instead of support/disable ones... IMHO is the most stupid thing in RO, like a Clown tyring to play as a Sniper



Fine, skip that and make us so offensive, so we can kill chars before they reach us. Because if they reach us we are dead.
you just said, that you want to be a destructive class. Now you complain about bein easily killed ?



That is the problem, Locks are not destructive as supposed and they are easyly killed, do you understand that? At least give us one of those things, resistance or destruction capabilities

StarShadow
02-07-2010, 12:45 AM
I'd like to know more about your opinions for nerf/buff Sorc&WL.
And I'll try gathering and redescribing them to see if most of us can reach a mild consensus.

(I can't reply fast, but I'll firmly follow the opinions you provide :))


--
As you guys know Grav tends to switch/exchange some abilities of the 3-1 and 3-2 classes,
every class is given more than 1 ability for sure.
(So both Sorc & WL have damage and support/disable abilities despite their deepgoing functions.)

However, it's just like the gigantic Prof's skill tree.
No one can fully acquired all the abilities at one time. Especially that WL's skill tree is much more complicated.
IMO it should be discussed practically what skills one (Sorc or WL) can learn instead of arguing on how many roles you can be.

-
I agree that the problem somehow is about WLs are not "destructive" while they are too easy to be killed.
The main role/abilities we thought are not given in the current environment.

-
We've discussed both here and WL thread about the SW/WI/ASURA issues.
Aside from WI can do disable functions,
I guess the main part of these disscussions are for the defending/survival abilities which WLs lack of.

The other one is about Asura. It's too spammable.
Asura was fine in the prerebirth stage,
but it became too good when Champ can collect 5 sphere at once (And now Sura can collect 15 spheres).
Moreover, with KVM weapons they can even ignore the whole cast time restriction.
The old formula and other factors also makes it too strong in some occasions.(i.e. MVP)

Some skills are often related to ones of other classes. I think this is the case.
IMO there should be some skill/spells used to defend Asura, or it should be a bit harder to cast.
Make SW absorb the whole remained damage for 1 time only and collapse or
80~90% success rate for WI to cast on self are some ways for WL/Sorc.
The two suggestion above also helps increasing WL's defending/survival abilities.

-
IMO ME is fine the way it is.
Though not as fully blockable to all the AoEs, ME can still block part of them.
From the videos it seems ME is still widely used.
It's quite OK turning it as a situational spell instead of always depending on it.

I think one of the points of 3rd jobs is to hasten the fighting tempo/speed.
Make ME block all the AoE and splash damages will make wars slowly.
People will stay in ME not will to move.

Nretep
02-07-2010, 04:48 AM
Make SW absorb the whole remained damage for 1 time only and collapse orthe Rebirth-status was fine because almost noone had SW and asura hat a long Cast/ Recharge.
the rePRE status was almost balanced, too. Asura got 25% stronger while the recharge was sped up several times. But Mage-Cls and HP now had the chance to get SWall

But I still don't want Asura to easily blocked by three different classes by a 100% chance to success. Even RKs (assuming stronger) have a skill with a huge reUse and catalyst requirement to survive this skill, but get stunned afterwards. So Mages shouldn't be able to block it.

80~90% success rate for WI to cast on self are some ways for WL/Sorc.I also still don't like the most powerful shield in Ragnarok with instantcast, no catalyst and high chance to success.

IMO ME is fine the way it is.
Though not as fully blockable to all the AoEs, ME can still block part of them.ME was fine preRebirth, when Sages had a decent casttime and the main DD was Wizard, which got blocked by it.
Now ME has a longer castime, and blocks almost no used spell, still costs catalysts and there're alot more spells from other classes which deal decent damage, now.

From the videos it seems ME is still widely used.the only use of ME now is to block other protective spells like Pneuma.
I didn't see a single ME in the last 2 woe videos, and I rarly saw one in all of them.

Elementra
02-07-2010, 05:25 AM
One thing to Comet:
If it'll be pushed (5x5 max dmg, more dmg a.s.o.), then i want the "thwo warlocks have to stand together" back...

Safetywall:
I don't know if i can objective to it, in case of blocking Asura. In pre-re it saved me so often my life, that i do not really like the "Safetywall got HP" thing. (Like Kyrie Eleison. Long time ago, it blocked hits, now it has HP and block not all hits, if the dmg gets to high) But after a while i will adapt it ._."

Magnetic Eath:
Should get more useful again.
I just know it preRE, and i do not want to miss it. But with RE and warmer, my first thought was:
Protecting against damage, or the new freezing-things..? What'll be more usefull?
I still come to no point, because ME does not block so much anymore (as i read)

Elie
02-07-2010, 05:50 AM
:facepalm:

I'd really like to know what makes people think Wizard can't level solo.
Magma Dungeon, Glast Heim Severs, Clock Tower, Turtle Dungeon, Niffleheim... I leveles in so many places solo as a Wiz/HW, and met other Wizard players in many different places, that I seriously don't know why do people spread the lie that Wiz "almost" always needs a support to level.
Wizard class output simply scales with support better than other classes.

So sorry, I still won't let You use just the immortal "party class" char against Warlocks, and ignoring the same for sorcerers.


i nver said wiz class can nver lvl solo?

i said wiz class always has a support with them

so im assuming your denying the fact that sage class are the ones who has the priest class with them...?

and that we nver saw a priest and a wiz lvling together?

im wondering how a squishy wiz class are able to lvl to monsters that can kill them 1HKO..


gud luck to you lvl solo in some of those places that you've mentioned...

pots all the way....:facepalm:

why the heck then would a priest party with a sage with only the two of them?
if the sage back then has no decent AoE? to kill more monsters faster?

you dont see what im implying..im talking about partying duo with a priest..
go ahead believe in yourself im with you..;)

PanzeMagier
02-07-2010, 05:53 AM
I'd like to know more about your opinions for nerf/buff Sorc&WL.
And I'll try gathering and redescribing them to see if most of us can reach a mild consensus.



We, along with other posters here can agree with many things. It's just that ONE PERSON who NEGATES EVERYTHING makes it impossible to have a consensus. :rolleyes:

SW should absorb residual damage.
Base Level Bonus should be Applied to all WL skills.
Comet should hit harder on a larger scale. Lessen Re-use delay a little bit.
Tetra-Vortex should be mdef negating or reducing, maybe the level of balls can somehow affect percentage reduction. All hits should be ampable.
WI should have high success chance on self. It only lasts 4 sec. Renders the WI immobile unable to do anything but pot and vulnerable to ghost/divine attacks. It NEVER was a god-Shield. Heck, Pneuma, a 1ST JOB skill is even more "op".
Also adjust Sienna's success chance.
Rework Recognize Spell a little bit to be worth getting.

I won't touch anything on Sorc damage because that is a mortal sin in the eyes of THAT PERSON. Support skills and disabling skills should be re-worked to be the main or popular route for the Sorcs. I hope summons could have a hand in that.

Hybrid_Addict
02-07-2010, 06:32 AM
SW should absorb residual damage. Yep.

Base level Bonus should be applied to all WL skills. -> Reply: Maybe Tetra Vortex and Comet instead...

Comet should hit harder on a larger scale. Lessen Re-use delay a little bit. -> Reply: How about improving the damage (something like 8000% on a 5x5 scale... 4000% on the outer layers and 2000% outside the AoE).

WI should be have high success chance on self. It only lasts 4 seconds. Renders the WI immobile, unable to do anything but pot and vulnerable to ghost/divine attacks. It NEVER was a god-Shield. Heck, Pneuma a 1ST JOB skill is even more "op". -> Reply: Make it last 2 seconds on yourself and 4 seconds on party members. And 10 seconds on other people. No pot. Vulnerable to ghost/set damage attacks. Make Pneuma last 7-10 seconds then.

Also adjust Sienna's success chance. -> Adjust the duration by making INT and LUK the resistance stats. Make maximum of 13 seconds.

Rework Recognize Spell a little bit to be worth getting. reply: what about giving a boost of MATK by 10% per level of magic amplification.

Work out Earth Strain and make it more powerful (and make it strip weapon, shield and armor only). Full Strip for the Shadow Chasers....

FS Sorcs are too popular... I'll give the rein to Hindsighters/Bolters instead...

To Spell Fist: ((ATK + STR + Study ATK) * Striking level) + ((MATK * (1.5* 80% chance improve by double bolt) * 1 + ( Siroma/Imp mode + MATK mod by Orlean's Glove)). Reduced by DEF.

To Psychic Wave: Remove the INT mod but keep the base level.

Diamond Dust: Improve chances to 35% with 120 VIT.

Arullo: Improve the duration to 5 seconds with 120 INT.

IMHO is the most stupid thing in RO, like a Clown tyring to play as a Sniper

If they don't have Arrow Vulcan, they wouldn't be playing as Clowns pretending to be Snipers. (every support class got an offensive skill or some buff to help them).

Shadow Chaser: Defensive: Sword Reject/Counter Enhancement: Preserve and Full Strip

High Priest: Enhancement: Assumptio and Meditato

Professor: Enhancement: Double Bolt

Paladin: Offensive: Gloria Domini, Martyr's Reckoning and Rapid Smite.

Clown: Offensive: Arrow Vulcan (and now most of them are attacking) Enhancement: Marionette or something... forgot....

Biochemist/Creator: Offensive: Acid Demonstration/Bomb (the only skill to beat out MvPs until the nerf came: 30 VIT on 99% of MvPs... exemption: Beezelbub) Enhancement: Slim Potion and Full Chem Protect

Champion: Enhancement: Zen (but this doesn't count since I said supportive...)

oddler
02-07-2010, 06:43 AM
Some peoples have said about the good as was the nerf in SW.
But.... asura is too strong(strongest skill ever) and with the nerf of sw i think the little suportive part of warlock go's to 0. And the suport of sorceress was nerfed too.

In other words with the nerf of SW it turns into a buff to asura.
Ouch! Another buff to asura.......because this things we see too much suras in Woe videos...

Well i think the suras class name should be chanced too asura.

Thunderbird
02-07-2010, 06:44 AM
Asura is supposed to be the ultimate skill from Ragnarok. So killing targets in SWall is fine for meThen it shouldn't be spamable. Ultimate skills are for rare use.that's what it's supposed to be. And it's been like that until rebirth classes came out

That would be fine.


you cannot see casts when you enter the screen.Ya, thats a bit stupid.

yeah, destructive, but not "kills a whole guild all by himself"It should be hard to pull off, but possible. What's your definition of "destructive"?


Fine, skip that and make us so offensive, so we can kill chars before they reach us. Because if they reach us we are dead.you just said, that you want to be a destructive class. Now you complain about bein easily killed ?You just don't get it...


On normal targets it's far away from full heal, just icewall is a bit cheat - that may be deactivated.it would be when it's 9x9. The success and HP gain got pushed so much, that the skill is fine now. But since it's defensive, most WLs won't get it.Most WLs won't get it, because it will not help them surviving that much longer. If you are down in 2 seconds, even a full heal will not help.


One thing to Comet:
If it'll be pushed (5x5 max dmg, more dmg a.s.o.), then i want the "thwo warlocks have to stand together" back...
As long as it's weaker or as strong as other AOEs...just no
If it's a real killerspell, than I can agree with it.

Slapzech
02-07-2010, 06:44 AM
:facepalm:

I'd really like to know what makes people think Wizard can't level solo.
Magma Dungeon, Glast Heim Severs, Clock Tower, Turtle Dungeon, Niffleheim... I leveles in so many places solo as a Wiz/HW, and met other Wizard players in many different places, that I seriously don't know why do people spread the lie that Wiz "almost" always needs a support to level.
Wizard class output simply scales with support better than other classes.

So sorry, I still won't let You use just the immortal "party class" char against Warlocks, and ignoring the same for sorcerers.


i nver said wiz class can nver lvl solo?

i said wiz class always has a support with them

so im assuming your denying the fact that sage class are the ones who has the priest class with them...?

and that we nver saw a priest and a wiz lvling together?

im wondering how a squishy wiz class are able to lvl to monsters that can kill them 1HKO..


gud luck to you lvl solo in some of those places that you've mentioned...

pots all the way....:facepalm:

why the heck then would a priest party with a sage with only the two of them?
if the sage back then has no decent AoE? to kill more monsters faster?

you dont see what im implying..im talking about partying duo with a priest..
go ahead believe in yourself im with you..;)



I leveled solo in all those places which I mentioned. As a Wizard. And I don't know what "pot all the way" are You talking about though. Playing Wizard forces You to simply not get hit. If You need to pot, then You are doing it wrong.

Wiz/Priest party? Sure, anytime. But it's not like Wizard is useless (or should be useless) without party.

Even Wiz players who always got party should go solo to some places once for a while. It really teaches how to play the class.

Hybrid_Addict
02-07-2010, 06:48 AM
She meant White Pot/White Slim potting or something.

Elie
02-07-2010, 07:14 AM
i nver said wiz class can nver lvl solo?

i said wiz class always has a support with them

so im assuming your denying the fact that sage class are the ones who has the priest class with them...?

and that we nver saw a priest and a wiz lvling together?

im wondering how a squishy wiz class are able to lvl to monsters that can kill them 1HKO..


gud luck to you lvl solo in some of those places that you've mentioned...

pots all the way....:facepalm:

why the heck then would a priest party with a sage with only the two of them?
if the sage back then has no decent AoE? to kill more monsters faster?

you dont see what im implying..im talking about partying duo with a priest..
go ahead believe in yourself im with you..;)



I leveled solo in all those places which I mentioned. As a Wizard. And I don't know what "pot all the way" are You talking about though. Playing Wizard forces You to simply not get hit. If You need to pot, then You are doing it wrong.

Wiz/Priest party? Sure, anytime. But it's not like Wizard is useless (or should be useless) without party.

Even Wiz players who always got party should go solo to some places once for a while. It really teaches how to play the class.


ya..im not really implying that wiz class are useless without a support...


with regards to buffs and nerfs from Hybrid_Addict

Comet: 5x5 scale should be 8000% and lesser damage the farther you are...same with Hybrid Addict's

if WI can be casted on yourself...
make Dispell castable on yourself too...it would be a double edge spell to when casted on yourself...atleast you've got more options if that's possible

PW int modifier seems OK to me...

DD chance should get an increase it not really that helpfull as well as its
mode cold status duration

Agree with Arullo having minimum 5 sec duration

To Spell Fist: ((ATK + STR + Study ATK) * Striking level) + ((MATK * (1.5* 80% chance improve by double bolt) * 1 + ( Siroma/Imp mode + MATK mod by Orlean's Glove)). Reduced by DEF.
Spellfist formula looks perfect and logical

LP should block all AoE magic as well as the splashes..its illogical for it not to do that

Hybrid_Addict
02-07-2010, 07:20 AM
It's too strong. Even stronger than Comet is...

And you don't need INT... you need MATK for it XD (it's madness and spartaa when it's stronger than comet.)

8 seconds is enough for Mode Cold at 120 VIT.

What about lowering the damage of the splashes while inside LP?

Elie
02-07-2010, 10:27 AM
well Int on PW...your right...matk is enough..but it should still have the same damage on lvl 150 without the int modifier...

splashes should not even work in LP i believe
AFAIK LP is not a shield/barrier spell
its a negation spell...that resists offensive magic

that's why it looks like a glowing carpet
and that's why it has the other name Magnetic Earth
positive magic attracts..negative of course repels...

just MHO


and i hope they remove the endow modifier on DD,EG and VS

cause it ruins the Sorcs skill tree not to mention the uselessness of EG and the Summon skills skill tree..

so far some Locks skills needs some reduction on casting time and delay and improve damage a bit..and TV to ignore a portion of mdef sounds fine

Luciel
02-07-2010, 12:42 PM
Well, after reading some ideas here and being unhappy with the similarity of Warlock and Sorcerer jobs, I thought of some changes to skills of both jobs.
With this I believe the classes would become more unique (but not sure if it's that what Gravity wants).
These are just my ideas, of course I can't make everyone agree with me, but I found interesting to post it here, to show what I think to whoever wants to read.
Also, when an effect of a skill is missing, it's that the effect would be just equal as it is now.

(If anything sounds absurd, I'm sorry, these are just thoughts)


Warlock

Summon Fire Ball/Summon Water Ball/Summon Lightening Ball/Summon Stone
Duration: 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 / 105
BLvl Duration Bonus: BLvl/5 sec
- Upkeep SP consumption increases accordingly to Tetra Vortex Level
(TVLvl*20)%

Crimson Rock
Matk Skill Modifier: 3000%
Level bonus: BLvl/100
Level 150 Skill Modifier: 4500%
Cast Time Delay: 1 sec
- Removed push back effect
- Doesn’t stun allies

Earth Strain
Matk Skill Modifier: 2700%
Level Bonus: BLvl/100
Level 150 Skill Modifier: 4050%
- Does not Strip anymore
- Causes Chaos Status by 50%

Chain Lightning
Matk Skill Modifier: 2000%
Level Bonus: BLvl/100
Level 150 Skill Modifier: 3000%
Cast Time Delay: 1 sec
- Splash effect of 3x3 area.
- All hits can be Amp’ed
- Has a 20% chance to cause Immobilization for 5 sec

Jack Frost
Matk Skill Modifier: 2700%
Level Bonus: BLvl/100
Level 150 Skill Modifier: 4500%
Cast Time Delay: 1 sec

Hell Inferno
- Burning damage increases according to user’s INT
(1000+(3%MHP+(INT*10)))

Frosty Misty
- Freezing status works on bosses, however, only the 10% DEF penalty is applied.

Comet
Matk Skill Modifier: 6000%~3000%
Level Bonus: BLvl/100
Level 150 Skill Modifier: 9000%~4500%
Area: Center to 7x7 100% ~ 7x7 to 11x11 75% ~ 11x11 to 15x15 50%
- Comet can only be casted by two Warlocks
Re-use Delay: 60 sec

Tetra Vortex
Matk Skill Modifier: 3000% (12000%)
Level Bonus: BLvl/100
Level 150 Skill Modifier: 4500% (18000%)
- Ignores target’s MDEF according to user’s base INT

Stasis
- Ghost property magic spells are allowed to be used and deals double damage to everyone affected by the skill.

Reading Spell Book
- Crimson Rock, Chain Lightning, Drain Life, Earth Strain, Comet and Tetra Vortex Spell Books removed. Warlock skills can no longer be memorized

Release
- Every time you release a Stored Spell, sacrifices 5% of your Max HP
- Level 1 releases only one Elemental Ball
- Level 2 releases all Elemental Ball you have summoned
- Level 3 releases Stored Spells
(Not a prerequisite of Recognized Spell anymore, but becomes Reading Spell Book requirement – Release Level 3)

Soul Expansion
- If the caster has Napalm Vulcan mastered, 50% chance to Curse the target and Splash Area goes up to 5x5
- Deals double damage to cursed targets


Sorcerer

Psychic Wave
Matk Skill Modifier: 550%
INT Bonus: INT*4
Area: 11x11 self centered
Cast Time: 5 sec
Re-use Delay: 7 sec
- Target hit by Psychic Wave has a chance to “forget” all of his skills during a period of time. 50% chance at level 5 and a duration of 20-BaseINT/10
- 25% chance to cast Dispel on targets not reducible by MDEF
- Converts SP recovery of the targets into SP damage over time during 10 minutes
- Deals only 1 hit

Diamond Dust
Matk Skill Modifier: 200%
INT Bonus: INT*3
Area: Deluge
Cast Time: 2 sec
- Chance to break equipments by 12%
- Frost Mode duration increased to 30-baseSTR/10

Earth Graver
Matk Skill Modifier: 200%
INT Bonus: INT*3
Area: 9x9
Cast Time: Instant
Re-use delay: 3 sec
- Usable only 0~2 seconds after Earth Spike (ignores cast delay). That target will be stone cursed and targets nearby will receive damage. 30% of the damage taken is also applied to SP. Stone curse lasts for 30-baseVIT/10 sec and the target becomes Earth Property Level 2. Not cancelled when target gets hit.
- If the caster has Endow Quake mastered, then, the target becomes Earth Property Level 3 Instead of Level 2

Striking
Damage Bonus: +20% damage to Fire, Water, Wind or Earth property attacks
- If the property of the attack comes from Endow Skills, bonus goes up to 30%

Cloud Kill
Matk Skill Modifier: 65%
- Deals damage to enemies’ SP
- If the enemy is under effect of Guillotine Cross Poisons, +100% Matk Skill Modifier

Poison Buster
- If the target struck by Poison Buster is under effect of Guillotine Cross Poisons, 5% chance to cause Coma after damage

Varetyr Spear
Matk Skill Modifier: 1000%
Atk Skill Modifier: 1000%
Re-use delay: 5 sec
- If casted over Whirlwind, bonus damage = WhirlwindLevel/10
- Targets struck by Varetyr Spear can’t cast Wind and Water Property Skills for the next 10 sec (doesn’t stack with Fire Walk effect)
- If the caster is under effect of Endow Tornado +20% damage

Arullo
Range: 3 cells
Area: 5x5
- Does not consume gemstones
- Slowly drains SP of targets, recovering the caster’s SP
- SP Drain: Caster’s INT per 2 seconds

Fire Walk
- If used over Volcano, doubles damage
- Target struck by Fire Walk gets burning status by 40%
- Target struck by Fire Walk can’t cast Fire and Earth Property Skills for the next 10 sec (doesn’t stack with Varetyr Spear effect)

Electric Walk
- If used over Whirlwind, each damaging cell will lasts the triple amount of time
- Target struck by Electric Walk gets Chaos status by 40%
- Target struck by Electric Walk has a chance to be hit by Lightning Bolt according to users Lightning Bolt Level. Chance of 80%. (Works with Double Bolt)


(In my opinion, some of sage/professor skills also need some changes to effectively work in Renewal)

s0937993174
02-07-2010, 12:42 PM
it makes a heal clip useless, because you gain much more with drain life (esp with icewall).


Can't do it on ice wall anymore.

Nretep
02-07-2010, 12:57 PM
Well, after reading some ideas here and being unhappy with the similarity of Warlock and Sorcerer jobs, I thought of some changes to skills of both jobs.
With this I believe the classes would become more unique (but not sure if it's that what Gravity wants).
These are just my ideas, of course I can't make everyone agree with me, but I found interesting to post it here, to show what I think to whoever wants to read.
Also, when an effect of a skill is missing, it's that the effect would be just equal as it is now.

(If anything sounds absurd, I'm sorry, these are just thoughts)


click (http://forums.irowiki.org/showpost.php?p=669008&postcount=340)

(In my opinion, some of sage/professor skills also need some changes to effectively work in Renewal)so buff all WL skills by at least 50%
and nerf all Sorc spells by at least 50%

Note:
- Sage does not know SP manipulation skills, so Sorc does not either.
- Walk skills do not work on ground skills.
- Having a skill with <100% is pretty useless with reduction mechanics

it makes a heal clip useless, because you gain much more with drain life (esp with icewall).
Can't do it on ice wall anymore.can't use it on icewall anymore ?

Elie
02-07-2010, 01:19 PM
Luciel ideas are more on buffing Locks
the damage modifier on Sorcs he made are so small to be felt..
its almost as weak as a mage spell

Arullo is already a disable spell..why change it...its not OP

Sage class is not all about sp manipulating skill...its actually more on disables and not just reduction of SPs

i dont see any reason to change Varetyr Spear

to help you on some ideas for you to build up
focus on Locks casting times and delays
how efficient they would be on MvP without just looking at burst damage or modifiers..their skill tree..Locks on the other hand

on the Sorcs part..the endows relation to DD,EG and VS...
usefulness of CK and PB..not just to inflict damage
EG's status effect...is not good
in short Sorc's disabling and self buff to improve damage

Luciel
02-07-2010, 01:20 PM
so buff all WL skills by at least 50% and nerf all Sorc spells by at least 50%

Well, if you see it as a nerf to Sorcerer spells, why do you play Professor? Nerf damage-wise, yes. I'm sorry if I seemed like a Warlock fanboy for you.

Note:
- Sage does not know SP manipulation skills, so Sorc does not either.
- Walk skills do not work on ground skills.
- Having a skill with <100% is pretty useless with reduction mechanics

- I don't see any SP manipulation skill there, but SP damage skills and disables. And also: Mages doesn't know Endow abilities, so a Sage can't have it?! Seriously, couldn't you find a better explanation? No offense.
- So turning it possible to work on grounds skill should be there in my changes
- These skills are not really supposed to damage, and also, I didn't see any skill <100% matk applied to HP, really.

Making 2 classes with the same basic function (in this case, Area Magic Damage) will never be balanced, only if you give both of them the same skills

s0937993174
02-07-2010, 01:34 PM
it makes a heal clip useless, because you gain much more with drain life (esp with icewall).
Can't do it on ice wall anymore.can't use it on icewall anymore ?

Ya, they changed it. Using on ice wall will only do damage on ice wall but no HP will be gained.

Elie
02-07-2010, 01:37 PM
- These skills are not really supposed to damage, and also, I didn't see any skill <100% matk applied to HP, really.

Making 2 classes with the same basic function (in this case, Area Magic Damage) will never be balanced, only if you give both of them the same skills

looking at the names itself
Psychic Wave - it may mean Very Offensive and Supportive at the same time
same with Diamond Dust...actually Diamond Dust sounds like a piercing skill

Earth Grave - the name implies a great disable..but what do we have?

Varetyr Spear -Clearly offensive..i dont see any means of this becoming a support

Cloud Kill - "Kill"
Poison buster - sounds supportive

and FYI...unlike Wiz class who focuses on offensive magic and being useless in hand-to-hand combat

sage class is made to be the opposite..has 3 builds a magically offensive, a fully supportive type and a 'Soldier' physically damaging type

sage class are the versatile version of the mages...
so focusing on supportive skills is incorrect...

do not compare us with Priests class..they have heals and cures...
disables and matk&atk oriented skills are what makes Sage class sages...

Luciel
02-07-2010, 01:45 PM
and FYI...unlike Wiz class who focuses on offensive magic and being useless in hand-to-hand combat

sage class is made to be the opposite..has 3 builds a magically offensive, a fully supportive type and a 'Soldier' physically damaging type

sage class are the versatile version of the mages...
so focusing on supportive skills is incorrect...

do not compare us with Priests class..they have heals and cures...
disables and matk&atk oriented skills are what makes Sage class sages...

So, we agree.

Nretep
02-07-2010, 01:47 PM
so buff all WL skills by at least 50% and nerf all Sorc spells by at least 50%Well, if you see it as a nerf to Sorcerer spells, why do you play Professor? Nerf damage-wise, yes. I'm sorry if I seemed like a Warlock fanboy for you.why do you play WL when you suggest statusses and defensive skills on WL ? Or didn't want to change those skills ?
But you wanted to nerf _all_ damageing spells of Sorc and keep all protective/ debuff skills from WL.

Note:
- Sage does not know SP manipulation skills, so Sorc does not either.
- Walk skills do not work on ground skills.
- Having a skill with <100% is pretty useless with reduction mechanics
- I don't see any SP manipulation skill there, but SP damage skills and disables. And also: Mages doesn't know Endow abilities, so a Sage can't have it?! Seriously, couldn't you find a better explanation? No offense.
- So turning it possible to work on grounds skill should be there in my changes
- These skills are not really supposed to damage, and also, I didn't see any skill <100% matk applied to HP, really.- you gave multiple spells an affection to SP. So you want to make the Scholars job and the Sorcs job to be the same. It's like giving WLs a +50% skilldamage skill, which doesn't stack with mAmp.
- it's codewise not really possible. Like perfect affection of mAmp on SG, it's equal to CL. But CL has low delay by default compared to SG. So it "burning affected by inflicters int", because it's a status ailment of the target.
- yeah, you increased the WLs modifier which all easily bypass thara. But Sorc ones are all slow and CK will be reduced to 15% matk with thara, ck and beret.

oddler
02-07-2010, 02:21 PM
I liked the ideas of Luciel, but i think sorceress dont need a nerf. The damage of the magical class in general are pretty crapy in ragnarok. Even if PW deals 1600% of damage er wave at level 150 i dont think this is overpower. For me warlock and sorceress have to get improved to compete with melee class damage.

If a melee class do X of damage then the magial class should have deal that same X. If dont then i dont see any balance in renew.

What i can see with the skill of sorceress and warlock is:
the sorcerer be a DoT magic damage and the warlock a Burst magic damage

I think pretty impossible even with crinson rock dealing 4500% damage, tetra vortex ignoring mdef,PW with less cast and 1600% per wave and the comet with a better radius of max damage, the magic turns overpower.

The 3rd classes have too much HP now, better equipment and another better equipments will came. We dont have to fear of increasing magic damage, because any new equipment which can increase HP, mdef or potting heal can easy destroy all the power of the magic even if it is with a skill modifier of 10000%.

The magic skills are far less spammable than melee skills, because of that any equipment can destroy the magic power.

And in this discussion thread we dont have to focus only in woe/pvp or pvm, we have to remember of the MvPs area which magic class are good only against low end mvps.

Elie
02-07-2010, 02:36 PM
Locks should display more AoE damage in a specific given time w/o AMP

Sorcs should at least have a very damaging single targeted skill and should have skills for being versatile physicall, support &deadly disables

with regards to physical>magic
this is something Gravity needs to work upon
not to mention the golden roach monster

Gio
02-07-2010, 03:11 PM
This is the first adjustment i'd make for Sorcerer class, then based on results from testers, and actual gameplay, i'd tweak/buff/improve stuff.
I let some skills out, 'cause i have to study, and i just have no more free time to work on them.

Also, note that i made all of these in a hurry, its quite likely they are not the best suggestions, and still feels like they are lacking something, but oh well.


Sage & Prof Skills

Dispell


Remove Catalyst Cost
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Dispell, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)



Endow Skills


Each Endow Skill should passively decrease any in-coming damage of its element by (5+5*SkillLv)%. So, a Lv.5 Endow Tsunami should passively reduce any Water damage you recive by 30%.



Hindsight


Change it to allow autocast of the skills up to 1 + 1/2 Hindsight’s level

Should add a flee bonus (5+2*SkillLv = ~ +25 at Lv.10), and a small aspd bonus if the skill is mastered (+3 Aspd)



Hocus Pocus


Update the skill so it can cast Rebirth, Expanded, and 3rd class skills
Change Catalyst cost to 1 Blue Gemstone
Reduce Max Lv from 10 to 3, but keep Lv.10 effects at Lv.3



Magentic Earth


Change cast time to 2 second fixed casting
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone and a blue Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Magnetic Earth, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)


Deluge


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Deluge touches an area occupied by Blinding Mist, then Deluge's area should be turned into a larger version of Blinding Mist (Blinding Mist Duration is still doubled)
Water Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)


Whirlwind


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
Whirlwind should spread the effect of any Fire Wall skill all over Whirlwind Area. This new "Whirlwind Fire Wall" should stay on the ground for the whole duration of Whirlwind spell and deal damage over time at Firewall's speed, while each hit's damage is also increased by Whirlwind (+50%).
Wind Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)



Volcano


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Volcano touches any Ice Wall, That Ice Wall should be turned into a Frost Misty Spell instantly.
Fire Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)


Spell Breaker


Lv.5 should force after-cast delay and cooldown of the interrupted skill on the target


Dragonology


Should passively reduce any in-coming Magic damage by (3xSkillLv)%.
Remove Int bonus


Foresight/Memorize


Foresight's effect should be changed.
Foresight should reduce any in-coming Magic Damage by half, while the skill is active
Additionally the following 5 Bolt Skills you cast should be enhanced (+50%); This bonus also increases Damage of Spellfist


Mind Breaker


Change Effect
Mind Breaker Should reduce both soft & hard Mdef
Additionally Mind Breaker should reduce Matk Instead of Amping it (-10% x SkillLv). Mind Breaker should also disable all ways of SP recovery (both Natural & by items), any skill used while under the effect of Mind Breaker should consume twice as much SP, and MSP should be reduced by half.
Duration should be increased based on Caster's int (+1% duration per Int = 60seconds with 100Int). And BaseLv (+1% every 3 levels = 90seconds at lv.150 with 100int)
Indulge should still work while under Mind Breaker effect; Infact Indulge should dispell Mind Breaker status


Soul Exhale


BLv & Int should improve Soul Exhale so the skill is useful again.


Sorcerer Skills

Earth Grave


Earth Grave should have a high chance (~100% at Lv.5) reduced only by Str (~-50% with 100Str), to trap all targets inside a 'hole' created in the are of the skill for ~20seconds at Lv.5 (Reduced by Str, like ~ 10seconds with 100Str).
Trapped Targets can't move, lose Hp over time (1000+SkillLv%Hp+15xInt), have their Natural HP recovery inverted, and Potion efficiency is Halved.
Anyone trying to cast a magic skill while still trapped on the hole has a ((5*SkillLv)+0.25*In)-(0.25*TargetVit+0.25*TargetInt))% chance to fail after his skill is fully casted, he stills pays the SP cost, and triggers both delay, and cooldown if the skill fails
Trapped targets in the area take increased damage from any Earth or Neutral Magic Skill ((+10*SkillLv)% additional dmg).
Damage should be reduced to ~1200%Matk at BLv 150
Damage should be increased based on targets' armory weight (the more their armor & shield weigh the more damage they take)
This damage enhancement based on weight should also be taken into account for the DoT effect of the skill.
Casting time should be 1s fixed + 1s Variable.


Vacuum Extreme.


Change Effect
Vaccum Extreme should imitate the effect of a Magic Rod for every Party/Guild member on the area the momment it is casted
Additionally, The absorbed spell should heal the caster (and only the caster), half the amount of damage it'd dealt to him
Vacuum then creates a 9x9 'Void' space and every 0.5seconds thereafter Magic Rod effect is simulated for all allies in the area. The caster still needs to be in the area, and negate damage that would've been normally dealt to him in order to heal though.
Can be normally casted over Magnetic Earth
Any AoE Spell that would land on the 'Void' area (anywhere over the 9x9 area), would have its center changed to the center of the Void space. This works on skills such a Comet, SG, HD, and the like.


Psychic Wave


Change Damage Formula.
The Skill should deal ~1000%Matk dmg per hit at Lv.150 with 150Int.
Damage and effect should vary based on target's race
PWave should remain Neutral Damage, but if you have an Endow Active at the time of casting, PWave takes that Element instead.
Formless: Should take increased damage (x1.5), and have their Atk and Matk halved for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Undead: Should take 1 damage per hit of PW, and there should be a ~50% chance to make them walk around randomly for a long duration of time.
Brute: Should take Increased Damage (x1.5), and have their skill usage negated for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Plant: Should take 25% of normal damage, and have their Mdef pierced by PWave. If hit by Fire PW they take full Damage instead.
Insect: Should take Double Damage, and walk around randomly for a moderate duration (~50% Success chance per hit)
Fish: Should take no damage, they should be affected by Crystalization Instead (100% irreducible success chance).
Demon: Should take 25% of normal damage, have their Mdef pierced by PW, and immobilize them with 50% success chance.
Demi-human: Should take half damage, but there should be a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*DispellLv))% to dispell them with every hit, in addition there is a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*mindbreakLv))%chance to inflict new Mind Breaker Effect, there is also a 100% chance (irreducible by any means) to make SP potions hurt SP instead of healing it.
Angel ...
Dragon: Should deal 15% of normal damage. If, Dragonology is mastered, then the skill should deal double damage and pierce their Mdef.
Reduce fixed casting time



Fire Walk


If you walk over a Whirlwind are while Fire Walk is active, the whole area of the whirlwind spell is turned into Fire Walk. This new 'Whirlwind Fire Walk' remains on the ground for the whole duration of Whirlwind spell and deals as much damage as your Fire Walk does every 0.5seconds, and does not coutn againt the maximun amount of cells active.
Fire Walk damage should ignore Mdef based on caster's Int. (120 Int = 60% Mdef bypass).
While Fire Walk is active, you should be immune against Freeze, Crystalization, and Freezing
While Fire Walk is Active you should take reduced damage from fire element -(5xSkillLv)%


Electric Walk


If you walk over a Deluge are while Fire Walk is active, the whole area of the Deluge spell is turned into Electric Walk. This new 'Deluge Electric Walk' remains on the ground for the whole duration of Deluge spell and deals as much damage as your Electric Walk does every 0.5seconds, and does not coutn againt the maximun amount of cells active.
Electric Walk damage should ignore Mdef based on caster's Int. (120 Int = 60% Mdef bypass).
While Electric Walk is active, your walking speed should be increased
While Electric Walk is Active you should take reduced damage from Wind element -(5xSkillLv)%


Diamond Dust


Reduce Damage to 500%Matk at Lv.5, 750%Matk at BLv 150.
Change casting time to: 1s fixed + 3s variable.
Highly increase Success chance
Increase duration of Crystalization effect and add a Fixed minumun duration for the effect.
Targets affected by Crystalization should have their Soft & Hard Def reduced to 0, their Soft & Hard Mdef reduced to 0, their Mhp reduced to 75% (This effect stays for 5 additional seconds after crystalization is gone), their Current SP reduced to 0, and the Hp they lose over time should increase according to you Int and BLv.








.

Nretep
02-07-2010, 03:14 PM
Even if PW deals 1600% of damage er wave at level 150 i dont think this is overpower. For me warlock and sorceress have to get improved to compete with melee class damage.Luciel suggested 1150% (if I understood the int part correctly; if not it's 550% + 600 dmg), and not each hit, but a single hit. It's like a lvl1 bolt with longer cast and longer rechanrge, but aoe. And WL deals 4500% * mAmp

with regards to physical>magic
this is something Gravity needs to work upon
not to mention the golden roach monsterwell, if you really want a (physical + magical) class, the Sorc would need a skill with a [Str * Int] ~ [Atk * MAtk] modifier for keeping both stats at the same level. But no other skill (exc VSpear and study) is a physical one.
At the same time there should be weapons for Sorc which provide decent Atk and MAtk at once. As well as more book affection than staffs (like the SorcStaff)

Dispell
Remove Catalyst Cost
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Dispell, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)

Endow Skills
Each Endow Skill should passively decrease any in-coming damage of its element by (5+5*SkillLv)%. So, a Lv.5 Endow Tsunami should passively reduce any Water damage you recive by 30%.

Hindsight

Change it to allow autocast of the skills up to 1 + 1/2 Hindsight’s level
Should add a flee bonus (5+2*SkillLv = ~ +25 at Lv.10), and a small aspd bonus if the skill is mastered (+3 Aspd)
Hocus Pocus

Update the skill so it can cast Rebirth, Expanded, and 3rd class skills
Change Catalyst cost to 1 Blue Gemstone
Reduce Max Lv from 10 to 3, but keep Lv.10 effects at Lv.3

Magentic Earth

Change cast time to 2 second fixed casting
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone and a blue Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Magnetic Earth, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)

Deluge

Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Deluge touches an area occupied by Blinding Mist, then Deluge's area should be turned into a larger version of Blinding Mist (Blinding Mist Duration is still doubled)
Water Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)

Whirlwind

Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
Whirlwind should spread the effect of any Fire Wall skill all over Whirlwind Area. This new "Whirlwind Fire Wall" should stay on the ground for the whole duration of Whirlwind spell and deal damage over time at Firewall's speed, while each hit's damage is also increased by Whirlwind (+50%).
Wind Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)

Volcano

Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Volcano touches any Ice Wall, That Ice Wall should be turned into a Frost Misty Spell instantly.
Fire Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)

Spell Breaker

Lv.5 should force after-cast delay and cooldown of the interrupted skill on the target

Dragonology

Should passively reduce any in-coming Magic damage by (3xSkillLv)%.
Remove Int bonus

Foresight/Memorize

Foresight's effect should be changed.
Foresight should reduce any in-coming Magic Damage by half, while the skill is active
Additionally the following 5 Bolt Skills you cast should be enhanced (+50%); This bonus also increases Damage of Spellfist

Mind Breaker

Change Effect
Mind Breaker Should reduce both soft & hard Mdef
Additionally Mind Breaker should reduce Matk Instead of Amping it (-10% x SkillLv). Mind Breaker should also disable all ways of SP recovery (both Natural & by items), any skill used while under the effect of Mind Breaker should consume twice as much SP, and MSP should be reduced by half.
Duration should be increased based on Caster's int (+1% duration per Int = 60seconds with 100Int). And BaseLv (+1% every 3 levels = 90seconds at lv.150 with 100int)
Indulge should still work while under Mind Breaker effect; Infact Indulge should dispell Mind Breaker status

Soul Exhale

BLv & Int should improve Soul Exhale so the skill is useful again.

Earth Grave

Earth Grave should have a high chance (~100% at Lv.5) reduced only by Str (~-50% with 100Str), to trap all targets inside a 'hole' created in the are of the skill for ~20seconds at Lv.5 (Reduced by Str, like ~ 10seconds with 100Str).
Trapped Targets can't move, lose Hp over time (1000+SkillLv%Hp+15xInt), have their Natural HP recovery inverted, and Potion efficiency is Halved.
Anyone trying to cast a magic skill while still trapped on the hole has a ((5*SkillLv)+0.25*In)-(0.25*TargetVit+0.25*TargetInt))% chance to fail after his skill is fully casted, he stills pays the SP cost, and triggers both delay, and cooldown if the skill fails
Trapped targets in the area take increased damage from any Earth or Neutral Magic Skill ((+10*SkillLv)% additional dmg).
Damage should be reduced to ~1200%Matk at BLv 150
Damage should be increased based on targets' armory weight (the more their armor & shield weigh the more damage they take)
This damage enhancement based on weight should also be taken into account for the DoT effect of the skill.
Casting time should be 1s fixed + 1s Variable.

Vacuum Extreme.

Change Effect
Vaccum Extreme should imitate the effect of a Magic Rod for every Party/Guild member on the area the momment it is casted
Additionally, The absorbed spell should heal the caster (and only the caster), half the amount of damage it'd dealt to him
Vacuum then creates a 9x9 'Void' space and every 0.5seconds thereafter Magic Rod effect is simulated for all allies in the area. The caster still needs to be in the area, and negate damage that would've been normally dealt to him in order to heal though.
Can be normally casted over Magnetic Earth
Any AoE Spell that would land on the 'Void' area (anywhere over the 9x9 area), would have its center changed to the center of the Void space. This works on skills such a Comet, SG, HD, and the like.

Psychic Wave

Change Damage Formula.
The Skill should deal ~1000%Matk dmg per hit at Lv.150 with 150Int.
Damage and effect should vary based on target's race
PWave should remain Neutral Damage, but if you have an Endow Active at the time of casting, PWave takes that Element instead.
Formless: Should take increased damage (x1.5), and have their Atk and Matk halved for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Undead: Should take 1 damage per hit of PW, and there should be a ~50% chance to make them walk around randomly for a long duration of time.
Brute: Should take Increased Damage (x1.5), and have their skill usage negated for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Plant: Should take 25% of normal damage, and have their Mdef pierced by PWave. If hit by Fire PW they take full Damage instead.
Insect: Should take Double Damage, and walk around randomly for a moderate duration (~50% Success chance per hit)
Fish: Should take no damage, they should be affected by Crystalization Instead (100% irreducible success chance).
Demon: Should take 25% of normal damage, have their Mdef pierced by PW, and immobilize them with 50% success chance.
Demi-human: Should take half damage, but there should be a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*DispellLv))% to dispell them with every hit, in addition there is a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*mindbreakLv))%chance to inflict new Mind Breaker Effect, there is also a 100% chance (irreducible by any means) to make SP potions hurt SP instead of healing it.
Angel ...
Dragon: Should deal 15% of normal damage. If, Dragonology is mastered, then the skill should deal double damage and pierce their Mdef.
Reduce fixed casting time

Fire Walk

If you walk over a Whirlwind are while Fire Walk is active, the whole area of the whirlwind spell is turned into Fire Walk. This new 'Whirlwind Fire Walk' remains on the ground for the whole duration of Whirlwind spell and deals as much damage as your Fire Walk does every 0.5seconds, and does not coutn againt the maximun amount of cells active.
Fire Walk damage should ignore Mdef based on caster's Int. (120 Int = 60% Mdef bypass).
While Fire Walk is active, you should be immune against Freeze, Crystalization, and Freezing
While Fire Walk is Active you should take reduced damage from fire element -(5xSkillLv)%

Electric Walk

If you walk over a Deluge are while Fire Walk is active, the whole area of the Deluge spell is turned into Electric Walk. This new 'Deluge Electric Walk' remains on the ground for the whole duration of Deluge spell and deals as much damage as your Electric Walk does every 0.5seconds, and does not coutn againt the maximun amount of cells active.
Electric Walk damage should ignore Mdef based on caster's Int. (120 Int = 60% Mdef bypass).
While Electric Walk is active, your walking speed should be increased
While Electric Walk is Active you should take reduced damage from Wind element -(5xSkillLv)%

Diamond Dust

Reduce Damage to 500%Matk at Lv.5, 750%Matk at BLv 150.
Change casting time to: 1s fixed + 3s variable.
Highly increase Success chance
Increase duration of Crystalization effect and add a Fixed minumun duration for the effect.
Targets affected by Crystalization should have their Soft & Hard Def reduced to 0, their Soft & Hard Mdef reduced to 0, their Mhp reduced to 75% (This effect stays for 5 additional seconds after crystalization is gone), their Current SP reduced to 0, and the Hp they lose over time should increase according to you Int and BLv.


Dispell
I don't like the "no catalyst" part. Maybe add a "without cataly it has half chance of success (50% on lvl5)

Endow Skills
If you mean by passive "when skilled" and not "when endow is applied", it sounds nice. But make it
[sLvl/4] * (sLvl-3) * 12%
so this bonus is [0; 0; 0; 12; 24]. 30% would be alot.
Also don't make it stack additively with garment reductions.

Hindsight
- Add Earth Spike and HD (only lvl1~3) into the list. Leveling the sage where alot wind monsters were sucked ...
- flee is ok, but +3 ASPD is too much. I had unbuffed "well equipped" 178 ASPD with +7 ledger and no shield. +2 is enough. or make it %.

Hocus Pocus
not my skill, so no comment

Magentic Earth
here again. No gemstone --> successchance ~75%

Deluge
making a full size FogWall is too much. maybe make each cell with FogWall have a splash of 3x3~5x5 adding 1~2 cells around it in size.

Whirlwind
sounds ok

Volcano
I don't like the "IceWall needed" part. because it needs a wiz and doesn't work in woe. Maybe "if there's someone frozen" ?

Spell Breaker
- reduce the casttime. 1s is just too much
- the delay part. (sLvl * 20%) instead of (100% @sLvl5) maybe ?

Dragonology
no comment

Foresight/Memorize
ForeSight is a "works for 5 skills" spell, no duration.
And I think it's pretty ok. But half the full cast, not only varCast

Mind Breaker
sounds nice. pretty strong but it's also a skill with a huge tree.
But as I said before, I think it's not possible to create a status ailment with over time effect and affected by inflicters stats.
Maybe limit it to 2~3 targets at maximum

Soul Exhale
I don't know how bLvl and Int shall affect this one. But leave Int out, since it's needed for maxSP anyways.
I think with Sacrament the skill is nice as supportive skill, but no debuff anymore.

Earth Grave
- limit the hole to max 5x5, maybe just 3x3 (EG has 7x7 or 9x9, right ?)
- unable to use in pvm, or what ?

Vacuum Extreme.
I like the current version. exc for ET it seems balanced for me.

for your version:
perm MRod. Then it has to work at ME. But at the same time you can destroy the Wizard class (dunno about EStrain), since targeted and groundtargeted would be blocked.
useless for pvm

Psychic Wave
- cut the int part, and make it 999% at lvl5 with bLvl150
- endow makes it (neutralMod + eleMod)/2. So "half endow" for element and still weakend by neutral reductions
- no >100% multiplier for races
- no 0% modifier for races.
- 50% to dispell ? each wave ? make it /10 = 5%

Fire Walk
I think ok

Electric Walk
I think ok

Diamond Dust
not sure, but I think ok

Note:
I think it's pretty odd to make "all" Sage skills fixed in casttime. It'd make Dex "completely" useless. But needed for MAge and Sorc.

Undo
02-07-2010, 03:31 PM
This is the first adjustment i'd make for Sorcerer class, then based on results from testers, and actual gameplay, i'd tweak/buff/improve stuff.
I let some skills out, 'cause i have to study, and i just have no more free time to work on them.

Also, note that i made all of these in a hurry, its quite likely they are not the best suggestions, and still feels like they are lacking something, but oh well.


Sage & Prof Skills

Dispell


Remove Catalyst Cost
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Dispell, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)



Endow Skills


Each Endow Skill should passively decrease any in-coming damage of its element by (5+5*SkillLv)%. So, a Lv.5 Endow Tsunami should passively reduce any Water damage you recive by 30%.



Hindsight


Change it to allow autocast of the skills up to 1 + 1/2 Hindsight’s level

Should add a flee bonus (5+2*SkillLv = ~ +25 at Lv.10), and a small aspd bonus if the skill is mastered (+3 Aspd)



Hocus Pocus


Update the skill so it can cast Rebirth, Expanded, and 3rd class skills
Change Catalyst cost to 1 Blue Gemstone
Reduce Max Lv from 10 to 3, but keep Lv.10 effects at Lv.3



Magentic Earth


Change cast time to 2 second fixed casting
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone and a blue Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Magnetic Earth, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)


Deluge


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Deluge touches an area occupied by Blinding Mist, then Deluge's area should be turned into a larger version of Blinding Mist (Blinding Mist Duration is still doubled)
Water Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)


Whirlwind


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
Whirlwind should spread the effect of any Fire Wall skill all over Whirlwind Area. This new "Whirlwind Fire Wall" should stay on the ground for the whole duration of Whirlwind spell and deal damage over time at Firewall's speed, while each hit's damage is also increased by Whirlwind (+50%).
Wind Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)



Volcano


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Volcano touches any Ice Wall, That Ice Wall should be turned into a Frost Misty Spell instantly.
Fire Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)


Spell Breaker


Lv.5 should force after-cast delay and cooldown of the interrupted skill on the target


Dragonology


Should passively reduce any in-coming Magic damage by (3xSkillLv)%.
Remove Int bonus


Foresight/Memorize


Foresight's effect should be changed.
Foresight should reduce any in-coming Magic Damage by half, while the skill is active
Additionally the following 5 Bolt Skills you cast should be enhanced (+50%); This bonus also increases Damage of Spellfist


Mind Breaker


Change Effect
Mind Breaker Should reduce both soft & hard Mdef
Additionally Mind Breaker should reduce Matk Instead of Amping it (-10% x SkillLv). Mind Breaker should also disable all ways of SP recovery (both Natural & by items), any skill used while under the effect of Mind Breaker should consume twice as much SP, and MSP should be reduced by half.
Duration should be increased based on Caster's int (+1% duration per Int = 60seconds with 100Int). And BaseLv (+1% every 3 levels = 90seconds at lv.150 with 100int)
Indulge should still work while under Mind Breaker effect; Infact Indulge should dispell Mind Breaker status


Soul Exhale


BLv & Int should improve Soul Exhale so the skill is useful again.


Sorcerer Skills

Earth Grave


Earth Grave should have a high chance (~100% at Lv.5) reduced only by Str (~-50% with 100Str), to trap all targets inside a 'hole' created in the are of the skill for ~20seconds at Lv.5 (Reduced by Str, like ~ 10seconds with 100Str).
Trapped Targets can't move, lose Hp over time (1000+SkillLv%Hp+15xInt), have their Natural HP recovery inverted, and Potion efficiency is Halved.
Anyone trying to cast a magic skill while still trapped on the hole has a ((5*SkillLv)+0.25*In)-(0.25*TargetVit+0.25*TargetInt))% chance to fail after his skill is fully casted, he stills pays the SP cost, and triggers both delay, and cooldown if the skill fails
Trapped targets in the area take increased damage from any Earth or Neutral Magic Skill ((+10*SkillLv)% additional dmg).
Damage should be reduced to ~1200%Matk at BLv 150
Damage should be increased based on targets' armory weight (the more their armor & shield weigh the more damage they take)
This damage enhancement based on weight should also be taken into account for the DoT effect of the skill.
Casting time should be 1s fixed + 1s Variable.


Vacuum Extreme.


Change Effect
Vaccum Extreme should imitate the effect of a Magic Rod for every Party/Guild member on the area the momment it is casted
Additionally, The absorbed spell should heal the caster (and only the caster), half the amount of damage it'd dealt to him
Vacuum then creates a 9x9 'Void' space and every 0.5seconds thereafter Magic Rod effect is simulated for all allies in the area. The caster still needs to be in the area, and negate damage that would've been normally dealt to him in order to heal though.
Can be normally casted over Magnetic Earth
Any AoE Spell that would land on the 'Void' area (anywhere over the 9x9 area), would have its center changed to the center of the Void space. This works on skills such a Comet, SG, HD, and the like.


Psychic Wave


Change Damage Formula.
The Skill should deal ~1000%Matk dmg per hit at Lv.150 with 150Int.
Damage and effect should vary based on target's race
PWave should remain Neutral Damage, but if you have an Endow Active at the time of casting, PWave takes that Element instead.
Formless: Should take increased damage (x1.5), and have their Atk and Matk halved for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Undead: Should take 1 damage per hit of PW, and there should be a ~50% chance to make them walk around randomly for a long duration of time.
Brute: Should take Increased Damage (x1.5), and have their skill usage negated for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Plant: Should take 25% of normal damage, and have their Mdef pierced by PWave. If hit by Fire PW they take full Damage instead.
Insect: Should take Double Damage, and walk around randomly for a moderate duration (~50% Success chance per hit)
Fish: Should take no damage, they should be affected by Crystalization Instead (100% irreducible success chance).
Demon: Should take 25% of normal damage, have their Mdef pierced by PW, and immobilize them with 50% success chance.
Demi-human: Should take half damage, but there should be a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*DispellLv))% to dispell them with every hit, in addition there is a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*mindbreakLv))%chance to inflict new Mind Breaker Effect, there is also a 100% chance (irreducible by any means) to make SP potions hurt SP instead of healing it.
Angel ...
Dragon: Should deal 15% of normal damage. If, Dragonology is mastered, then the skill should deal double damage and pierce their Mdef.
Reduce fixed casting time



Fire Walk


If you walk over a Whirlwind are while Fire Walk is active, the whole area of the whirlwind spell is turned into Fire Walk. This new 'Whirlwind Fire Walk' remains on the ground for the whole duration of Whirlwind spell and deals as much damage as your Fire Walk does every 0.5seconds, and does not coutn againt the maximun amount of cells active.
Fire Walk damage should ignore Mdef based on caster's Int. (120 Int = 60% Mdef bypass).
While Fire Walk is active, you should be immune against Freeze, Crystalization, and Freezing
While Fire Walk is Active you should take reduced damage from fire element -(5xSkillLv)%


Electric Walk


If you walk over a Deluge are while Fire Walk is active, the whole area of the Deluge spell is turned into Electric Walk. This new 'Deluge Electric Walk' remains on the ground for the whole duration of Deluge spell and deals as much damage as your Electric Walk does every 0.5seconds, and does not coutn againt the maximun amount of cells active.
Electric Walk damage should ignore Mdef based on caster's Int. (120 Int = 60% Mdef bypass).
While Electric Walk is active, your walking speed should be increased
While Electric Walk is Active you should take reduced damage from Wind element -(5xSkillLv)%


Diamond Dust


Reduce Damage to 500%Matk at Lv.5, 750%Matk at BLv 150.
Change casting time to: 1s fixed + 3s variable.
Highly increase Success chance
Increase duration of Crystalization effect and add a Fixed minumun duration for the effect.
Targets affected by Crystalization should have their Soft & Hard Def reduced to 0, their Soft & Hard Mdef reduced to 0, their Mhp reduced to 75% (This effect stays for 5 additional seconds after crystalization is gone), their Current SP reduced to 0, and the Hp they lose over time should increase according to you Int and BLv.








.
Props to you, some of those were quite creative. I think the changes for some of the skills you suggested might have been a bit too much though.

Yoyo
02-07-2010, 03:42 PM
@Gio
None of those are going to happen, but I wholeheartedly agree to pretty much everything. Maybe not on diamond dust, as cristallization basically means instant death for anyone, but everything else seems just fine D:

CrimsonFlame
02-07-2010, 03:43 PM
Note:
- Sage does not know SP manipulation skills, so Sorc does not either
Wiz don't know Amp, so WL does not either

...yet you have, and still to this day, use that in your arguments against WLs....stop being a hypocrite Nretep, or kindly gbt Sorc thread.

Sfyn
02-07-2010, 04:21 PM
@Gio:
You complain that Psychic Wave is too strong, and that's no point on using a Warlock to deal damage, still you suggest a Psychic Wave that looks like a giant AoE Esma-like selectable element that half of the races take bonus damage and/or have mdef pierced, that would make Sorcerers the best AoE DPS by far. On PvP/WoE, you could use a Psychic Wave that dispells most of the time and reduces mdef of the targets, imagine an ice Pwave in combination with dragon breath or many sorcerers casting different element Pwave, nothing would pass through it.

I agreed with you most times, but I think Sorcerers are fine now, it is Warlocks who need tweaks, basically rise their damage a little.

Elementra
02-07-2010, 05:10 PM
Note:
- Sage does not know SP manipulation skills, so Sorc does not either
Wiz don't know Amp, so WL does not either

...yet you have, and still to this day, use that in your arguments against WLs....stop being a hypocrite Nretep, or kindly gbt Sorc thread.

I think he ment something like:
(my interpretation:)
They evolve. First sage, then Prof, then Sorc. If sorc know sp-manipulation, they stayed on the same level.

and yes, wiz dont know, so the warlock dont know amp

for both you have to trans ;)

Kogi
02-07-2010, 05:45 PM
For god sorceres, please: GO MAKE A WARLOCK for testing, PLEASE. You all say that warlocks are nice the way they are, but MOST (not all) of you, NEVER played with a warlock. ._.

Prodigy
02-07-2010, 09:05 PM
If a melee class do X of damage then the magial class should have deal that same X. If dont then i dont see any balance in renew.

The magic skills are far less spammable than melee skills, because of that any equipment can destroy the magic power.

And in this discussion thread we dont have to focus only in woe/pvp or pvm, we have to remember of the MvPs area which magic class are good only against low end mvps.
+1

Being the only two offensive caster classes, why is it that sorcs and locks want to nerf the crap out of each other when in the big picture, physical>magical?

-We think super strong AoEs are OP, oh wait, other classes have AoEs that are better than both locks and sorcs.
-No one seriously walks around with stacked mdef gear in WoE. That tells you a lot about magical attacks. In fact, it's more suicidal to run around with pure mdef gear.
-Casters in RO aren't "glass cannons" but more like "glass handguns" (or some other firearm lesser than cannons) when compared to the destructive power of other classes.

I think casters should be buffed somehow. Warlocks of course, needs to do better general damage than Sorcs, but Sorcs still need to be able to cast a spell and expect people to pot. For starters, the def and mdef formula should be somehow changed so that people will wear a balanced amount of both def and mdef gear in WoE. Sadly, I don't see mechanics formula being changed anymore.

Nretep
02-08-2010, 01:39 AM
Note:
- Sage does not know SP manipulation skills, so Sorc does not eitherWiz don't know Amp, so WL does not either

...yet you have, and still to this day, use that in your arguments against WLs....stop being a hypocrite Nretep, or kindly gbt Sorc thread.as I said before, giving Sorcs SP manipulation skills is like giving WLs a "+45% skillmodifiers" skill which does not stack with mAmp.

Gio
02-08-2010, 06:01 AM
@Undo
Thanks for you comment. Yeah i guessed so, i was really in a hurry, so i didn't do the the necessary math to keep balance, which is why i was expecting some of the skills to be just too much anyways. Its like i told Atum, i just wrote a series o random raw ideas that came to mind while i was studying, without further analyzing, balancing on researching.

@Tears
Yeah i know they won't happen, i just enjoy doing it xD. Hope to see you on RE soon, to test some stuff i need to finish data gathering for the WL compilation update ~

@Sfyn
Well i was in a hurry when i wrote those, and i didn't actually did any in-depth research as i should, i just posted these to show the change in concept i'd like to see (from a Damage dealing class as main role into a Disabler/Support/Defensive/Anti-magic class as main role with moderate ability to deal damage). My Suggestions could use many tweaks, and i plan on doing them anyways, after i'm done with exams, and Warlock Compilation (Even if i do know that suggesting stuff won't actually change anything in the game, i still enjoy doing things like that).

I disagree with something though, Sorcerers are not fine. Their Damage is too high compared with Warlock's and their Disabling/Supportive/Anti-magic/Defensive skills are way too much downgraded, effectively killing 2 of my favourite classes in the game (FS Scholar, and Hwizard). They are still in a better position than Current Warlock, though.

@Nretep
Yeah, my intention was to make the % Success chance of Dispell around 5%. I just forgot to add the /10 at the end of the formula due to my hastiness. Thanks for fixing that.

Well, since i kind of gave Earth Grave the role of Vaccum, and i think Sorcerers should have a skill to counter Splash Magic, and since i dont like the idea of MagE doing it all (both AoE and Splash), i decided to go with Vaccum to cover that role. Enabling to cast it over MagE could really be too much, though.

I don't think its that hard to make a to create a status ailment with over time effect and affected by inflicters stats... I'm developing a small game of mine, i'm using a simple platform, and easy handled Programming Language, yet i can easily simulate these effect with the use of Clauses and Multiple Fake states.

Your stats won't really affect the State, but rather the skill itself. Something like, When Int 1~50 inflict state A, When Int 51~100 Inflict State B, When Int 101~150 Inflict state C, and When Int 150+ Inflict State D. Then you just make A,B,C, and D have the same name, same icon display, and similar effects (affected as you want them to be affected), reduced by same stats, cards, skills, or whatever you might want.

I can also make a state, auto-cast a skill the moment its effect is gone, you could make this skill add the second State you want to add to the caster (in this case the inflicted target).

If i can do these with my low level developing skills, (compared to profesionals Developers), and a simple Game-devoloping Platform with tightly limited capacities, I expect Gravity to do way better than me, if they have/need/want to do so.

Nretep
02-08-2010, 07:01 AM
Yeah, my intention was to make the % Success chance of Dispell around 5%. I just forgot to add the /10 at the end of the formula due to my hastiness. Thanks for fixing that.instead of writing such a complicated formula just write
(0.5% * (sLvl +dispellLearned))

Well, since i kind of gave Earth Grave the role of Vaccum, and i think Sorcerers should have a skill to counter Splash Magic, and since i dont like the idea of MagE doing it all (both AoE and Splash), i decided to go with Vaccum to cover that role. Enabling to cast it over MagE could really be too much, though.hm, I haven't thought about this. If you say EG shall be the new locker (as the name describes), then Vacuum would be redundant. But having a lock which deals damage, is unusable in pvm.

If Vacuum would be an AoE protection spell, it should be bigger (11x11 ?), but not a 100% success of MRod effect. More like 50%, since almost every WL spell is countered by MRod. SP regain would be denied (exc for MRodLearned). The re-positionating of GT skills sounds odd. Maybe re-link any (?) targeted spell to the Sorc. Even supportive ones ?
HP regain should be <= 33%, maybe successchance applied

I don't think its that hard to make a to create a status ailment with over time effect and affected by inflicters stats... I'm developing a small game of mine, i'm using a simple platform, and easy handled Programming Language, yet i can easily simulate these effect with the use of Clauses and Multiple Fake states.

Your stats won't really affect the State, but rather the skill itself. Something like, When Int 1~50 inflict state A, When Int 51~100 Inflict State B, When Int 101~150 Inflict state C, and When Int 150+ Inflict State D. Then you just make A,B,C, and D have the same name, same icon display, and similar effects (affected as you want them to be affected), reduced by same stats, cards, skills, or whatever you might want.

I can also make a state, auto-cast a skill the moment its effect is gone, you could make this skill add the second State you want to add to the caster (in this case the inflicted target).

If i can do these with my low level developing skills, (compared to profesionals Developers), and a simple Game-devoloping Platform with tightly limited capacities, I expect Gravity to do way better than me, if they have/need/want to do so.that it's technically possible to code this is obviously true, but
- you don't know Aegis, do you ?
- what happend if the inflicter moves to another server ?
- continuously checking the inflicters stats will produce more lags.

I just saw that I wrong it to MBreaker, which shouldn't be a problem, since you just mentioned the duration of the status, which is not an "over-time"-effect, but an "initial"-effect.

TeaRs
02-08-2010, 07:59 AM
@Tears
Yeah i know they won't happen, i just enjoy doing it xD. Hope to see you on RE soon, to test some stuff i need to finish data gathering for the WL compilation update ~

Silly Gio, you worry about me too much.
I've never posted in this topic until now, I think you are referring to Yoyo right? xD
Hmm just PM me on forums if you need me with the warlock compilation testings provided I'm awake, I'll log on.

Hybrid_Addict
02-08-2010, 10:40 AM
I would recommend Varetyr Spear to be a PATK AoE affected by MATK, Lightning Loader and stuff.

Sfyn
02-08-2010, 10:51 AM
@Sfyn
[...]

I disagree with something though, Sorcerers are not fine. Their Damage is too high compared with Warlock's and their Disabling/Supportive/Anti-magic/Defensive skills are way too much downgraded, effectively killing 2 of my favourite classes in the game (FS Scholar, and Hwizard). They are still in a better position than Current Warlock, though.


Well, maybe I think Sorcerers are fine because I always played a Scholar to deal damage.

If you could, please show me why are the old Disabling/Supportive/Anti-magic/Defensive skills are not useful anymore, Dispell is still there, 1sec cast with sacrament seems fair, Soul Exhale is still useful for anything that isn't Asura, Soul Siphon, Indulge and Fiberlock are the same (and Vacuum seeming like AoE version of Fiberlock), ME maybe not be as useful as preRE but still has its uses, Spellbreaker and Magic Rod are the same, aren't they? So, please, enlighten me if there is something I can't see.

And yes, I know their damage is high in comparison with Warlock, that's why I say Warlock main damaging skills should be powered up.

CrimsonFlame
02-08-2010, 10:58 AM
If you want to indirectly buff ME's usefulness, have Dragon Breath deal area magic damage instead of fire-prop ranged physical.

Elie
02-08-2010, 11:33 AM
from Gio's proposal

Sage Skills
Dispell


Remove Catalyst Cost
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Dispell, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)

>having the catalyst is fine just make it castable on self and with halved casting time

Endow Skills
no comment


Hindsight


Change it to allow autocast of the skills up to 1 + 1/2 Hindsight’s level

Should add a flee bonus (5+2*SkillLv = ~ +25 at Lv.10), and a small aspd bonus if the skill is mastered (+3 Aspd)

add skills to autocasts?

Hocus Pocus
maybe just cast a random monster skill either supportive like slow cast or offensive like earthquake

Magentic Earth


Change cast time to 2 second fixed casting
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone and a blue Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Magnetic Earth, the catalyst will be consumed, but its casting time should be halved (1s Fixed).
This casting reduction stacks with Sacrament (0.5s fixed casting if Sacrament is active)

looks ok

Deluge


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Deluge touches an area occupied by Blinding Mist, then Deluge's area should be turned into a larger version of Blinding Mist (Blinding Mist Duration is still doubled)
Water Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)

looks fine except for the big fogwall thing..maybe just increased it vertically or horizontally according to how it was casted but not the whole AoE

Whirlwind


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
Whirlwind should spread the effect of any Fire Wall skill all over Whirlwind Area. This new "Whirlwind Fire Wall" should stay on the ground for the whole duration of Whirlwind spell and deal damage over time at Firewall's speed, while each hit's damage is also increased by Whirlwind (+50%).
Wind Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)

looks fine but for the FW it should just enlarge a row..not the whole AoE
Volcano


Change casting time to 1s Fixed.
If the caster has a Yellow Gemstone on his inventory when he casts Deluge, the catalyst will be consumed, but the skill should be casted instantly (0s casting)
If Volcano touches any Ice Wall, That Ice Wall should be turned into a Frost Misty Spell instantly.
Fire Elemental Damage should increase by 10*SkillLv (+50% at Lv.5)

dont know bout the IW part, either changed or removed

Spell Breaker


Lv.5 should force after-cast delay and cooldown of the interrupted skill on the target

agreed on delay but shouldnt have much casting time

Dragonology


Should passively reduce any in-coming Magic damage by (3xSkillLv)%.
Remove Int bonus

current skill is ok with regards to dragons and int bonus..just needs 10% magic reduction


Foresight/Memorize


Foresight's effect should be changed.
Foresight should reduce any in-coming Magic Damage by half, while the skill is active
Additionally the following 5 Bolt Skills you cast should be enhanced (+50%); This bonus also increases Damage of Spellfist

imho remove the magic damage reduction
we saw the future..just give a chance to evade magic by 35% evade physical damge by 25%
from the name Memorize..remove the no of skills limit & let us have reduced casting time for 7 secs


Mind Breaker


Change Effect
Mind Breaker Should reduce both soft & hard Mdef
Additionally Mind Breaker should reduce Matk Instead of Amping it (-10% x SkillLv). Mind Breaker should also disable all ways of SP recovery (both Natural & by items), any skill used while under the effect of Mind Breaker should consume twice as much SP, and MSP should be reduced by half.
Duration should be increased based on Caster's int (+1% duration per Int = 60seconds with 100Int). And BaseLv (+1% every 3 levels = 90seconds at lv.150 with 100int)
Indulge should still work while under Mind Breaker effect; Infact Indulge should dispell Mind Breaker status

imhoshould just reduce total mdef, self usable

Soul Exhale


BLv & Int should improve Soul Exhale so the skill is useful again.

agreed

Sorcerer Skills

Earth Grave


Earth Grave should have a high chance (~100% at Lv.5) reduced only by Str (~-50% with 100Str), to trap all targets inside a 'hole' created in the are of the skill for ~20seconds at Lv.5 (Reduced by Str, like ~ 10seconds with 100Str).
Trapped Targets can't move, lose Hp over time (1000+SkillLv%Hp+15xInt), have their Natural HP recovery inverted, and Potion efficiency is Halved.
Anyone trying to cast a magic skill while still trapped on the hole has a ((5*SkillLv)+0.25*In)-(0.25*TargetVit+0.25*TargetInt))% chance to fail after his skill is fully casted, he stills pays the SP cost, and triggers both delay, and cooldown if the skill fails
Trapped targets in the area take increased damage from any Earth or Neutral Magic Skill ((+10*SkillLv)% additional dmg).
Damage should be reduced to ~1200%Matk at BLv 150
Damage should be increased based on targets' armory weight (the more their armor & shield weigh the more damage they take)
This damage enhancement based on weight should also be taken into account for the DoT effect of the skill.
Casting time should be 1s fixed + 1s Variable.

looks fine and damage should not rely from endows

Vacuum Extreme.


Change Effect
Vaccum Extreme should imitate the effect of a Magic Rod for every Party/Guild member on the area the momment it is casted
Additionally, The absorbed spell should heal the caster (and only the caster), half the amount of damage it'd dealt to him
Vacuum then creates a 9x9 'Void' space and every 0.5seconds thereafter Magic Rod effect is simulated for all allies in the area. The caster still needs to be in the area, and negate damage that would've been normally dealt to him in order to heal though.
Can be normally casted over Magnetic Earth
Any AoE Spell that would land on the 'Void' area (anywhere over the 9x9 area), would have its center changed to the center of the Void space. This works on skills such a Comet, SG, HD, and the like.

maybe just absorb the magic on the aoe area, make everyone immovable in the area reduceable by str
dont cast on top of LP but works when casted near the LPs edge
center changing is fine
no heal or just 10% damage heal
Psychic Wave


Change Damage Formula.
The Skill should deal ~1000%Matk dmg per hit at Lv.150 with 150Int.
Damage and effect should vary based on target's race
PWave should remain Neutral Damage, but if you have an Endow Active at the time of casting, PWave takes that Element instead.
Formless: Should take increased damage (x1.5), and have their Atk and Matk halved for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Undead: Should take 1 damage per hit of PW, and there should be a ~50% chance to make them walk around randomly for a long duration of time.
Brute: Should take Increased Damage (x1.5), and have their skill usage negated for a moderate duration (~30% Success chance per hit)
Plant: Should take 25% of normal damage, and have their Mdef pierced by PWave. If hit by Fire PW they take full Damage instead.
Insect: Should take Double Damage, and walk around randomly for a moderate duration (~50% Success chance per hit)
Fish: Should take no damage, they should be affected by Crystalization Instead (100% irreducible success chance).
Demon: Should take 25% of normal damage, have their Mdef pierced by PW, and immobilize them with 50% success chance.
Demi-human: Should take half damage, but there should be a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*DispellLv))% to dispell them with every hit, in addition there is a ((5*SkillLv)+(5*mindbreakLv))%chance to inflict new Mind Breaker Effect, there is also a 100% chance (irreducible by any means) to make SP potions hurt SP instead of healing it.
Angel ...
Dragon: Should deal 15% of normal damage. If, Dragonology is mastered, then the skill should deal double damage and pierce their Mdef.
Reduce fixed casting time

hmm maybe just give the Dispell on everyone that was hit for the chance formula Nretep gave, 1000% per hit
and make them unable to do any form of damage to the caster for as long as the PW is active lasts for 3 secs after PW disappears
should not be a status ailment...just make the caster invulnerable almost like wink charms effect

Fire Walk
no comment

Electric Walk
same with Fwalk

Diamond Dust


Reduce Damage to 500%Matk at Lv.5, 750%Matk at BLv 150.
Change casting time to: 1s fixed + 3s variable.
Highly increase Success chance
Increase duration of Crystalization effect and add a Fixed minumun duration for the effect.
Targets affected by Crystalization should have their Soft & Hard Def reduced to 0, their Soft & Hard Mdef reduced to 0, their Mhp reduced to 75% (This effect stays for 5 additional seconds after crystalization is gone), their Current SP reduced to 0, and the Hp they lose over time should increase according to you Int and BLv.

damage should be same with the proposed EG at 130 int instead & not endow reliant
just make the crystallization prevent skill&item use,equip change,movement
75% chance on lvl 5 'like Soul Burn' to inflict status but reduced by vit with the same formula
reduce only hard mdef&def
just reduce sp by 50% of MaxSP
no minimum fixed duration


"do these effects affect MvP? can we kill MvPs with these?"
just my insights


@Sfyn
[...]

I disagree with something though, Sorcerers are not fine. Their Damage is too high compared with Warlock's and their Disabling/Supportive/Anti-magic/Defensive skills are way too much downgraded, effectively killing 2 of my favourite classes in the game (FS Scholar, and Hwizard). They are still in a better position than Current Warlock, though.


Well, maybe I think Sorcerers are fine because I always played a Scholar to deal damage.

If you could, please show me why are the old Disabling/Supportive/Anti-magic/Defensive skills are not useful anymore, Dispell is still there, 1sec cast with sacrament seems fair, Soul Exhale is still useful for anything that isn't Asura, Soul Siphon, Indulge and Fiberlock are the same (and Vacuum seeming like AoE version of Fiberlock), ME maybe not be as useful as preRE but still has its uses, Spellbreaker and Magic Rod are the same, aren't they? So, please, enlighten me if there is something I can't see.

And yes, I know their damage is high in comparison with Warlock, that's why I say Warlock main damaging skills should be powered up.

i believe what he means is the supportive and disabling skills from the Sorc skill tree..maybe we can wait the summons on the next patch

hopefully...

Kogi
02-08-2010, 05:12 PM
@Elie
Giving Sorcerer's invunerability while using their most used skill? Err... no. .-.
But, I agree with everything you said, aside the PW thing, that would be ridiculously OP (Sura is coming with Asura/RB *Cast PW, you are the only one alive*)

Elie
02-08-2010, 11:35 PM
saw that coming but i understand

are you referring to the Foresight/Memorize skill or PW?

well for what i thought on PW is just for them not to be able to target us thats all ^^
PW is indeed Psyche all about the mind
instead of giving a mind control skill, just make them unable to target the caster with any attack or skill for 3 sec
is it still OP?

For the Foresight/Memo thing well we can reduce the chances and its still Dispellable

well we are not expecting these changes anyway ^^

Nretep
02-09-2010, 01:12 AM
@Elie
Giving Sorcerer's invunerability while using their most used skill? Err... no. .-.
But, I agree with everything you said, aside the PW thing, that would be ridiculously OP (Sura is coming with Asura/RB *Cast PW, you are the only one alive*)ignoring the fact that RB is instant and Asura has a shorter cast than PW

are you referring to the Foresight/Memorize skill or PW?

well for what i thought on PW is just for them not to be able to target us thats all ^^
PW is indeed Psyche all about the mind
instead of giving a mind control skill, just make them unable to target the caster with any attack or skill for 3 sec
is it still OP?you clearly said "invulnerable during duration"
just say you meant "victims of PW will receive a(n invisible) stun-status for duration"

But that would be too much, too. PW is vulnerable to hide and such. This is the disadvantage of an DoT skill.

Elie
02-09-2010, 02:53 AM
well lets just make it

PW - while being hit you cannot target the caster physically and magically but you can still move *endure may let you escape the PW AoE*
- after PW is finished there is a 3 secs leftover duration that you still could not target the caster and still you can move

edit*even with faster hits..cloaking exceed is still usable..if only we can chain HD on top of PW...*

RB- is LONG range instant
i believe it would fly first before we finish casting PW and no delay

Rumm
02-09-2010, 10:47 AM
hum, great ideas Gio!
-vacuum idea rocks, add that ME counters it. Cut gambetien's cast time to 1 fixed, 1 sec delay and 3~5 seconds re-use delay
-Buff ground effects to help restore MP while in them (can be coupled with the AB tree) [love the other mixing ideas]
-f/w walk skills increasing movement speed will actually give us a reason to get them!

Earth grave making a trap effect sounds much more logical, and for DD i like though i'd cut the duration of crystilized status to like...2~5seconds

Nretep
02-09-2010, 11:00 AM
- I don't know how you want to differ RBlast and FMist
- ME blocks skills that use the ground as catalyst. I don't know how DB works, but making it possible to negate splash of single target spells would take long to code.
- int should not exponentially increase the damage of any spell. Renewal got rid of square functions because they wanted to increase the stats to an "unlimited" amount. If they plan on fourth classes with bStats 150, they have to re-adjust the Sorc again, which is just wrong.
- Increased walkspeed by 10~20% won't make me use skillpoints while it only lasts 12 cells (more on top of ground spells)

Rumm
02-09-2010, 11:11 AM
i edited my whole post cause well, i finished reading all of gios....! But ya, the ME part is redundant. I just want ME to have some value, looks like the only value will be to put it under other casters so they cant put protection skills down (the range should be increased if thats it's only real use)
-int portion...ya i agree. its actually pretty effing OP to allow for such a formula, i figure if it's in game warlocks should at least have something akin to it

Nretep
02-09-2010, 11:23 AM
I'd actually prefer the opposite way of calcing. I'd rather not give WLs an additional int amplifier and remove it for Sorcs. I guess they want Sorc to choose between destruction, or protection. And they'd have to spend everything they have on int instead of vit, str, luk

Why not make a skill which benefits battle builds ? or unique ones.

100k % / Int * MAtk
1k % * Str / Int * MAtk

Kogi
02-09-2010, 05:30 PM
saw that coming but i understand

are you referring to the Foresight/Memorize skill or PW?

well for what i thought on PW is just for them not to be able to target us thats all ^^
PW is indeed Psyche all about the mind
instead of giving a mind control skill, just make them unable to target the caster with any attack or skill for 3 sec
is it still OP?

For the Foresight/Memo thing well we can reduce the chances and its still Dispellable

well we are not expecting these changes anyway ^^


Now I see what you meant ^^
Even if they aren't going to be enabled, the sage ones are really creative, and would give a new way of playing it.
@Nretep

Since when asura has a faster cast than PW? Sorry, i'm a bit out of date, don't log in sakray renewal for some time :wah:

Elie
02-09-2010, 07:03 PM
saw that coming but i understand

are you referring to the Foresight/Memorize skill or PW?

well for what i thought on PW is just for them not to be able to target us thats all ^^
PW is indeed Psyche all about the mind
instead of giving a mind control skill, just make them unable to target the caster with any attack or skill for 3 sec
is it still OP?

For the Foresight/Memo thing well we can reduce the chances and its still Dispellable

well we are not expecting these changes anyway ^^


Now I see what you meant ^^
Even if they aren't going to be enabled, the sage ones are really creative, and would give a new way of playing it.
@Nretep

Since when asura has a faster cast than PW? Sorry, i'm a bit out of date, don't log in sakray renewal for some time :wah:


PW now is 9 secs with 1 sec aftercast delay you can check the updated compilation for it
not to mention RB which is instant and 1 sec aftercast delay
and currently deals 3x damage when cast in Fury state :wah:

Nretep
02-10-2010, 02:02 AM
PW now is 9 secs with 1 sec aftercast delay you can check the updated compilation for itPW5 has 10s cast now (http://forums.irowiki.org/showpost.php?p=658532&postcount=1262)
so with high int/dex it has similar cast to 5 dex / 0 int asura

Doddler
02-10-2010, 03:25 PM
PW now is 9 secs with 1 sec aftercast delay you can check the updated compilation for itPW5 has 10s cast now (http://forums.irowiki.org/showpost.php?p=658532&postcount=1262)
so with high int/dex it has similar cast to 5 dex / 0 int asura

I think its 10s cast, 9s variable 1s fixed. With proper buffs and good stats its possible to get it down to 0.5s cast time.

Elie
02-10-2010, 03:57 PM
PW now is 9 secs with 1 sec aftercast delay you can check the updated compilation for itPW5 has 10s cast now (http://forums.irowiki.org/showpost.php?p=658532&postcount=1262)
so with high int/dex it has similar cast to 5 dex / 0 int asura

I think its 10s cast, 9s variable 1s fixed. With proper buffs and good stats its possible to get it down to 0.5s cast time.

woh didnt estimated it to be able to reach 0.5 cast time
that's fast thinking for Sorcs to release the psychic energy haha

Nretep
02-11-2010, 01:54 AM
I think its 10s cast, 9s variable 1s fixed. With proper buffs and good stats its possible to get it down to 0.5s cast time.it feels longer with my stats. I'd rather say it's the opposite.

Doddler
02-11-2010, 03:16 AM
1s fixed is the same fixed cast as crimson rock/tetra vortex/earth grave, but with a longer variable cast time. What are your stats anyways?

By proper buffs I'm mainly referring to max cast speed plus sacrament. It's really easy to test, get isilla card to activate while in magic strings, and you instantly have max cast speed, sacrament will cut that remaining time in half. My numbers might not be correct, I'm just going from what I hear, so it might be worth doing better tests.

Nretep
02-11-2010, 03:35 AM
1s fixed is the same fixed cast as crimson rock/tetra vortex/earth grave, but with a longer variable cast time. What are your stats anyways?

By proper buffs I'm mainly referring to max cast speed plus sacrament. It's really easy to test, get isilla card to activate while in magic strings, and you instantly have max cast speed, sacrament will cut that remaining time in half. My numbers might not be correct, I'm just going from what I hear, so it might be worth doing better tests.~120 int, ~110 dex
Formula: 1.792s varCast

feeling: 4s cast with OGown
Formula + your guess: 3.06s cast

And I'm pretty sure that 3s is wrong.
I don't have strings available, and it'd need a reset to get a skill that can properly trigger isilla.
braGolems as well as the Dica Spiders come out of VE before I finish the PW cast.

I'll try to test in ~8.5h from now on.

Note:
EStrain, not EGrave

[ Edit ]
forgot to add 1s

Atum
02-11-2010, 10:49 AM
it feels longer with my stats. I'd rather say it's the opposite.
Of course it feels longer with your stats since you dont have max int/dex (i think you have 100 basedex and 105 baseint if i remember correctly).

With 190 int and 170 dex you'd reduce variable casttime to 0 or, as Doddler mentioned, you can use isila + strings for that.

Getting at least 180 int and 160 dex is not that hard to get as pure caster build with genetics +20 food (and 120 basedex/baseint of course) so as a pure caster the casting time of PW (without having max total dex/int) should be reduceable to 0.6~0.8 seconds with sacrament and without strings.

Nretep
02-11-2010, 01:05 PM
ok, assuming my formula is correct
x = (1 – cast/bCast) / (1 – A * B)
A := (1 – sqrt(NUM/530))
B := (1 + eqCast)
NUM := Int + 2 * Dex
x := varFactor (80% for most spells)
my results for testing PW is
PW5 is a (88/12) cast

I timed with my cell phone, and tested with 2 different int/dex values and OGown on/off (got x = [87.8; 88.1; 88.1; 88.8] as results). Since I didn't have Sacrament available a (88/0/12) is also possible

Elie
02-12-2010, 12:25 AM
Looked at Gio's updated WL compilation

its very clear that Locks reduced Status infliction chances are higher than the Status infliction chances of Sorc's not to mention Sorc's only have 2 decent disable...

Comets really suck with its damage distribution
and as how i see it only Comet needs a serious fix

the other Lock skills are fast (about 4secs) enough and highly damaging

s0937993174
02-12-2010, 11:39 AM
Sorc's only have 2 decent disable...


well, they only have 13 skills too.

Hybrid_Addict
02-17-2010, 02:57 PM
That's 4 status inflicting + damaging AoEs, 2 which are useful, 2 damaging AOEs, 1 melée skill, 2 buffs, 2 non-damaging AoEs

as for warlocks that's 1 defense skill, 3 enhacement skills, 1 not useful, 3 single target skills and the rest are AoEs... I think 8-12

Nretep
02-17-2010, 03:57 PM
That's 4 status inflicting + damaging AoEs, 2 which are useful, 2 damaging AOEs, 1 melée skill, 2 buffs, 2 non-damaging AoEs

as for warlocks that's 1 defense skill, 3 enhacement skills, 1 not useful, 3 single target skills and the rest are AoEs... I think 8-12let me try to recall your post ...

Sorc
4 status inflicting + damaging AoEs
VSpear
- [Stun] for 3s. Dunno if it's reduceable, but it's able to lower the chance
EGrave
- just [Bleeding], nothing strong on othe rplayers
- does not work on pvm
DDust
- [Frost], yes. Powerful ailment. Reduceable and low in success
- does not work on pvm
CKill
- [Poison] is that uber ailment. It's almost like Coma
- req 2 RGs
- low dmg skill

2 which are usefull
DiaDust, with a long cast and low chance
VSpear needs Str to deal damage, and will most likely not be in the normal build

2 damaging AoEs
PW
yes
EG ? VS ? PBuster ?

1 melee skill
SFist. 100% reduceable by thara, needs setup, needs ~21 skillpoints for single element, close range, and highly reduced by mdef.
You want it for WLs ?

2 buffs
Striking
yes
Warmer ?
yes

2 non-damaging AoEs
Vacuum ?
yes
Arullo ?
yes


Warlock
damage + status
CRock
HellInferno
Comet
FMisty
JFrost
EStrain]

usefull
CRock
JFrost
EStrain

damage (aoe)
CRock
Comet
JFrost
EStrain

damage (st)
SoulExpansion
HellInferno
CLightning
TV

debuffs
WhiteImprison
Stasis
March of the Abyss
FMisty
SiennaEx
TV

selfbuffs
Radius
DrainLife
WhiteImprison
RecogSpell
Instant most spells




you forgot 2 walk skills
And yeah ... 8-12 ...

Hybrid_Addict
02-17-2010, 05:31 PM
Yep I forgot

no way for spell fist, they already have their own melée skill. Oh wait it's not counted, that's for HW. But still no, since they have instant cast buff.

Rumm
02-19-2010, 10:27 AM
after looking through your list Nretep looks like sorc's are way gimped. Summons hopefully will fix that if they ever actually implement the programming into game-play...thats our last hope.

Atum
02-19-2010, 11:19 AM
@Nretep:
I wouldnt really count Stasis as a buff for warlocks, its more of a suicide skill that makes you unable to do anything for 30 seconds.

Also, your post only showed the downsides of the sorcerer skills, you didnt list any downsides of warlock skills.

Warlock

damage + status

CRock - stupid pushback, can stun allies/partymembers in both pvp and pvm
HellInferno
Comet - costs 2 red gemstones, very high re-use delay, deals max damage only on the very center cell of the area
Fmisty - does not work vs bosses
JFrost - does not work vs bosses
EStrain - quite short range for a magic skill (only targets up to 9 cells away from the caster get hit)


damage (st)

TV - very high prereqs, very high preparation time



Also i dont get why you list TV as debuff-skill.
Its main function is to deal large single target damage and unless you use 5 spheres of the same element the chance to inflict statusses is quite low.

And yea, warlocks do have more overall skills than sorcerers but its impossible to get them all since warlocks have a much tighter 3rd class skill tree and have the same amount of job skill points.

Also i disagree with your statement that Cloud kill is a low damage skill.
When it was used on my warlock, and that was before the buff when it still did very low damage per 0.5 seconds, cloud kill alone killed my warlock very quickly while i was unable to move or cast anything because of its rapid hitting rate.
Gio just told me when he tested cloud kill with tears in pvp cloud kill dealt ~1200 damage per hit, that would make cloud kill at least 3600 damage per second, not counting the 2%hp/sec-drainage from poison status.

Combined with poison buster a sorcerer (it was yoyo i think) was able to kill me in 1~2 seconds.
Also, poison element isnt that bad, considering not many people carry arclouze armors (there are undead armors but people will default fire armors or water armors, cloud kill does 125% damage vs fire/wind or earth element players) or anti-poison garments in woe and there are no poison-resist potions.
I think the 2 red gemstone requirement is stupid but the skill is far from being weak.

@Rumm :
If sorcerers were really so gimped alot less people would play sorcerer in woe but would play warlocks instead.
This is not the case on kro, though, there are tons of sorcerers in woe while there are only very few warlock players (see kro woe videos, you'll see there are alot of sorcerers killing people).

Gio
02-19-2010, 11:25 AM
after looking through your list Nretep looks like sorc's are way gimped. Summons hopefully will fix that if they ever actually implement the programming into game-play...thats our last hope.

Gimped? You must be kidding me right?

Nretep
02-19-2010, 11:34 AM
@Nretep:
I wouldnt really count Stasis as a buff for warlocks, its more of a suicide skill that makes you unable to do anything for 30 seconds.well, then ME/LP (preRE) is a suicide skill, too.
what about going alone in the enemies def and rape it with a single skill ?


damage + status

CRock - stupid pushback, can stun allies/partymembers in both pvp and pvm
HellInferno
Comet - costs 2 red gemstones, very high re-use delay, deals max damage only on the very center cell of the area
Fmisty - does not work vs bosses
JFrost - does not work vs bosses
EStrain - quite short range for a magic skill (only targets up to 9 cells away from the caster get hit)


damage (st)

TV - very high prereqs, very high preparation time



Also i dont get why you list TV as debuff-skill.
Its main function is to deal large single target damage and unless you use 5 spheres of the same element the chance to inflict statusses is quite low.dispell dispels allies, too
warmer heals enemies
me/lp protects enemies
ele area field benefit enemies
scholar has always been the most double edged charater. So the argument "a skill stuns the party for 0.3s by a certain chance" is not enough
yes, TV has high preskills, but most of themwere skilled anyways. Compare it to Spellfist, which needs high freecast, autocast, sfist and "all" bolts (not even earth) and TV needs 4 skillpoints for full element

I thought 4x same element TV has a quite high chance for a status ailment ? Even tough it's not the main purpose for the skill, yes

Also i disagree with your statement that Cloud kill is a low damage skill.
When it was used on my warlock, and that was before the buff when it still did very low damage per 0.5 seconds, cloud kill alone killed my warlock very quickly while i was unable to move or cast anything because of its rapid hitting rate.
According to yoyos sorcerer compilation cloud kill does ~300 damage per 0.3 seconds at level 150, which is 1000 damage per second, on top of that the usual 2% hp drain every second because of poison status.
Yes, there is poison status resistance but because of the rapid hitrate of CK you're pretty much guaranteed to stay in poison status as long as you stay in the cloud kill area.
Overall Cloud kills average damage will be about 1400~2200 damage per second on players (1000 damage per second + 2% hp drain per second).

I think the 2 red gemstone requirement is stupid but the skill is far from being weak.yeah, it's a nice skill, but stupid with the 2 gemcost. I think I'd rather have Comet than CK + PB (damage wise)

Atum
02-19-2010, 11:57 AM
@Nretep:
I wouldnt really count Stasis as a buff for warlocks, its more of a suicide skill that makes you unable to do anything for 30 seconds.well, then ME/LP (preRE) is a suicide skill, too.
what about going alone in the enemies def and rape it with a single skill ?
Your arguement is pretty much flawed.
When a person says "skill X of class A is useless" you cant counter it with "well then skill Y of the class B is useless too".
If you want to disproof my statement that stasis is a suicide skill then you should show me how stasis is not a suicide skill or how stasis is not a skill that makes you useless for 30 seconds rather than just choosing one random sage skill and declare it a suicide skill aswell.

ME has been proven over the years to be a very useful skill and contrary to stasis after casting ME you are still able to do something rather than just standing around for 30 seconds.

If stasis would not affect the caster, or better, would not affect allies then this skill would be very good but right now its a garbage skill with a high re-use delay that makes you (and your allied magic users) useless for 30 seconds.

CrimsonFlame
02-19-2010, 01:46 PM
I think ME is more harmful to Sorcs in RE than in the past figuring it's gonna block a lot of their own skills. But besides that point, ME is still much more useful than Stasis. Besides Atum's points, remember that ME atleast lingers on the field for a period of time. Stasis only affects those currently on in the "blast" radius of the skill at the time it is activated. If some WL strolls onto the screen a millisecond after you cast Stasis, he can still cast on you while you can't cast on him/her.

Elie
02-19-2010, 01:57 PM
and sorc's skills are meant for status infliction but why are the chances so low and greatly reducible compared to WL's statuses...

Atum
02-19-2010, 02:11 PM
and sorc's skills are meant for status infliction but why are the chances so low and greatly reducible compared to WL's statuses...

Probably because warlocks status effects are far less limiting the enemy than Sorcerers.

When you recieve burning and freezing from warlocks at least you can walk, do attacks, use items and somewhat still cast fast skills or skills that are uninterruptable, DD:Cold and Deep Sleep completely disable you (moving/casting/itemuse/attacking) so they should not last as long.

I'm not saying that i 100% agree how far sorcerers status effects can be reduced but completely disabling status effects should always have a lower chance/shorter duration than status effects that only slow you down.

Doddler
02-19-2010, 04:37 PM
Diamond Dust freezing and Deep Sleep are useful in small skirmishing but in large battles they're not very effective. Diamond Dust is low enough probability that it's not reliably an issue (against a max level opponent, 10%-20%). Deep Sleep cancels when you get hit, and in active battles, that should probably be... suprisingly frequent. It can also be cancelled by supportive Wanderer/Minstrel.

While I don't think burning status is hugely effective, Freezing is a hugely debilitating status. There's a reason you see warmer all over the damn place in kRO sieges, that's because no one wants the status on them because it screws pretty well everyone.

In terms of disables, I'd say warlock wins out, with both earth strain and frost mist. That's not to say I think warlock is more effective, they're definately less versatile and definately go down faster, but they aren't useless.

Carrot
02-19-2010, 08:07 PM
@Nretep
There's something called LP walking, where you cast LP below your feet as you close the distance between guilds, so you can place LP more effectively. And going in alone into an enemy's formation to cast LP? Why would anyone do that? You'd only go deep inside enemy formation to LP only when you have enough backup, any smart player will know not to blindly rush into the enemy guild.

And stasis really is a double-edged sword. It's large area of effect makes it easier to land the stasis effect on enemies, but it'll also screw over your own casters/support as well. If you want to try and maximize stasis' effect by not affecting friendly targets, a warlock would literally have to rambo deep into enemy territory and die.

Dispel dispels allies. So? I have absolutely no clue where you're going with this.
Warmer heals allies. Do you cast warmer where an enemy guild will benefit from it? Of course not.
ME/LP protects enemies. This can actually be a strategy to remove enemy's pneuma so you can invade with Dbreath/Rampage w/e.
ME is harmful to Sorcs in renewal not because it also blocks their skills (which is a moot point, you're not gonna cast LP over the enemy when you're gonna cast spells on them are you?), but because having LP means you can't have pneuma to block Dbreath and w/e else, which seems to be the dominant force in the woe meta in renewal.
And for elemental area skills, again, you're not going to be casting it where it'll benefit your enemies, and even if it did, you can recast it somewhere else.

@topic
I hate how renewal gave every class some sort of effective AOE skill, or some way of one/two shotting many characters. It makes surviving with Warlocks a much more painful ordeal, and with the Warlocks' unique role of ranged AOE dpser taken away from them, they're finding themselves having to compete with even more classes.

I think Warlocks are pretty balanced, but every other class seems too good and it makes warlocks less desirable to use.

Elie
02-19-2010, 11:08 PM
a complete disable in 3 secs is useless
you wont be able to normally do a combo in that duration

less limiting statuses can stack
once stacked they can be deadlier than a short complete disable

as we can see WL's statuses can stack...

freezing alone can even be considered decapitating...

Atum
02-20-2010, 08:30 AM
a complete disable in 3 secs is useless
you wont be able to normally do a combo in that duration
A skill that completely disables a person is better in several situations than a status that only inflicts damage/makes you slower, for example when a person is on your emp or on your guardian stones it is much better to just put him to sleep/cold status and keep this person that way until somebody arrives that can kill this person than just lowering his aspd with freezing and enabling this person to further do damage.

Especially with stuff like berserk guitar, which sets your aspd to 193 and thus is perfect for empbreaking, freezings aspd penalty is useless while statuses that completely disable can help saving the emp.

@Doddler : thats right, in normal battles warlocks status effects are better than sorcerers sleep but sorcerers/scholars status effects are better against important single targets and if your guild has good teamwork you could tell your guildmates to not attack this particular person to not remove sleep status.

Nretep
02-20-2010, 10:45 AM
a complete disable in 3 secs is useless
you wont be able to normally do a combo in that duration
A skill that completely disables a person is better in several situations than a status that only inflicts damage/makes you slower, for example when a person is on your emp or on your guardian stones it is much better to just put him to sleep/cold status and keep this person that way until somebody arrives that can kill this person than just lowering his aspd with freezing and enabling this person to further do damage.

Especially with stuff like berserk guitar, which sets your aspd to 193 and thus is perfect for empbreaking, freezings aspd penalty is useless while statuses that completely disable can help saving the emp.

@Doddler : thats right, in normal battles warlocks status effects are better than sorcerers sleep but sorcerers/scholars status effects are better against important single targets and if your guild has good teamwork you could tell your guildmates to not attack this particular person to not remove sleep status.3s disable is better than 10s 75% aspd reduce and longer casttime ?

Atum
02-20-2010, 11:04 AM
3s disable is better than 10s 75% aspd reduce and longer casttime ?
Read my examples again, for certain situations (minstrell on emp) or against certain people (people with instantcasts and who dont care about moving speed) completely disabling is better than slowing a person down..

Elie
02-20-2010, 11:17 AM
you may be right about it Atum

but i believe there are more instances that WL's statuses are better

Rumm
02-20-2010, 01:59 PM
Atum & Gio, i said based off what Nretep said, not absolute fact. Yet I am getting gradually more worried about Sorc's. In your explanation about CK and PB Atum, you begin to restore hope that the skill might not be crap damage. Yet in on the other end of the see-saw is this:
Diamond Dust freezing and Deep Sleep are useful in small skirmishing but in large battles they're not very effective. Diamond Dust is low enough probability that it's not reliably an issue (against a max level opponent, 10%-20%). Deep Sleep cancels when you get hit, and in active battles, that should probably be... suprisingly frequent. It can also be cancelled by supportive Wanderer/Minstrel.

While I don't think burning status is hugely effective, Freezing is a hugely debilitating status. There's a reason you see warmer all over the damn place in kRO sieges, that's because no one wants the status on them because it screws pretty well everyone.

In terms of disables, I'd say warlock wins out, with both earth strain and frost mist. That's not to say I think warlock is more effective, they're definately less versatile and definately go down faster, but they aren't useless.
which is a + to warmer but a - to the debuffs sorcerers have. Additionally while dispel is decent, quag is instant and its effects are quite terrible to receive. Couple that with ME being generally a bad idea because it allows for DBreath and other dangerous skills that require pneuma to block to actually connect. It's not terribly lacking, just somewhat. Sorc class needs something additional to make them solid characters.

~Fake
02-20-2010, 06:49 PM
Arrulo its real usefull in gvg. Unlike gag because can effect yours friends.

Elie
02-20-2010, 11:05 PM
and compare the casting time of their debuffs..for such a not so reliable effect...

i consider the term "disable" if you are halted for a considerable amount of time..
if you are just gonna be free already for 3 seconds?
as if we can pull off another skill within that 3 secs, thanks to the nerf bcoz of some other job..

whats the difference with slow that affects stats that lasts for how long??
weakening you...slowing you..making you vulnerable for a long time...

s0937993174
02-21-2010, 12:25 AM
weakening you...slowing you..making you vulnerable for a long time...

Not sure how much freezing can weaken and vulnerable a person....it sure slows ppl though.

TeaRs
02-21-2010, 12:47 AM
weakening you...slowing you..making you vulnerable for a long time...

Not sure how much freezing can weaken and vulnerable a person....it sure slows ppl though.
Well if slow to a certain extent so that you can't run away from harm (eg AoEs) then I would call that a vulnerability.

Elie
02-21-2010, 12:55 AM
so you mean then reducing def and mdef is not being vulnerable?
even casting time increase?


Freezing Effect: Move Speed -70% / Attack Speed - 30% / Fixed Cast Time + 50% / Physical defense - 30%
[Freezing] will last for a minumun of 10 seconds.


MoA has mdef and flee reduction
Quag's improved agi and dex reduction...won affect flee and casting time?

then while you are slow...you get hit with a stun..while being burned?

and thats not for 3 secs i tell you..


so you mean then reducing def and mdef is not being vulnerable?
even casting time increase?



Freezing Effect: Move Speed -70% / Attack Speed - 30% / Fixed Cast Time + 50% / Physical defense - 30%
[Freezing] will last for a minumun of 10 seconds.


MoA has mdef and flee reduction
Quag's improved agi and dex reduction...won affect flee and casting time?

then why you are slow...you get hit with a stun..while being burned?

and thats not for 3 secs i tell you..

Quag -instant
MoA -600ms
CR-6000ms
HI-4000ms
FMisty-2000ms

how fast are those combos

while
DD-6secs cast time for a low chance of Mode Cold for 3 secs
Arullo - 2 secs w/ catalyst

Gio
02-21-2010, 06:04 AM
so you mean then reducing def and mdef is not being vulnerable?
even casting time increase?


Freezing Effect: Move Speed -70% / Attack Speed - 30% / Fixed Cast Time + 50% / Physical defense - 30%
[Freezing] will last for a minumun of 10 seconds.

Don't be so misleading, by reading your comment, people will think that Freezing reduces Mdef, which is not true.


MoA has mdef and flee reduction
Quag's improved agi and dex reduction...won affect flee and casting time?

MoA's Mdef reduction isn't that powerful as you imagine, actually the effect isnt really practical nor worth the delay in most cases, 'cause of the following reasons:
-MoA doesnt affect Boss Monsters
-Many of the High Mdef monsters in the game are Boss Type
-Players don't run around WoE with High Mdef
-Damage Increasement even against a High Mdef MoAed target isn't that great
-Duration is way too short, especially with our delays

There are only a few situations counted by hand (and won't even fill a hand), where it is actually worth going through the trouble of casting MoA on a Target.

Quag didn't get any improved Agi or Dex Reduction, also, look around your skill-tree for a second, you too have this as you called 'super debuff', You want it?, you can get it. The only reason you don't have it in your build, its because you have better skills to spend your points on, then... w8, that means Quag isn't as good as you describe it to be.

[Quote]
then while you are slow...you get hit with a stun..while being burned?

and thats not for 3 secs i tell you..


so you mean then reducing def and mdef is not being vulnerable?
even casting time increase?

-MoA's Mdef reduction isn't that powerful as you imagine, actually the effect isnt really practical nor worth the delay in most cases, 'cause of the

-Stun doesn't last for 3 seconds, it lasts for like 1second at best. And don't come here saying that Warlocks will stun you, Crimson Rock BASE Stun Chance is about that of Diamond Dust Success chance against an already high stat target. Against High Stat targets, Crimson Rock's Stun chance is non-existant, unless you are a party member, in which case, Crimson Rock's seems to ignore Stun resistance, and inflicts the state on party members quite frecuently.


Quag -instant
MoA -600ms
CR-6000ms
HI-4000ms
FMisty-2000ms
how fast are those combos

-You also have Quagmire on your skill-tree. Get it, if you want.
-CR has 2s after-cast delay and 5s re-use delay
-HI is a 1-target skill, you obviously haven't played WoE on a Wizard / High Wizard / Warlock. 'Causing State on a target is not what we are supposed to be doing.
-Frost Misty has a 2s after-cast delay and 8s re-use delay
-To answer your question, in the case a Warlock gets full Variable casting reduction and Sacrament, the fastest this combo can be cast is... 7100ms [B]without any Mystical Amplificationin-between. After that the Warlock isnt able to re-do the same combo for another 8seconds.


while
DD-6secs cast time for a low chance of Mode Cold for 3 secs
Arullo - 2 secs w/ catalyst
-With full Variable casting duration, and Sacrament, you can pull out a DD+PW+EG combo in 4000ms. Calculate just how much more damage your combo deals.

-Nterep has about 100dex, and is wearing a +% casting time armor, thats why his magic feels slow, don't think that you won't be able to combo anything fast just 'cause his build can't. I am too a tester, and i go to PvP once in a while, and i've seen Sorcerers pull out combos at quite a high speed, and Mental Stick isn't even out yet (Just think of how much will the combo speed and damage improve once the stick is out). I have even seen Cloud Kill taking down a high Lv. Arch Bishop with ~36Mdef in ~3s without the sorcerer using another skill, while proving to be a really potent Hit-locking AoE.

If sorcerers were so gimped, then it wouldn't be the 2nd most popular class on RE WoE, What position are Warlocks in, again ?


Sure, Sorcerers do need a buff for disable, defensive, and anti-magic skills, but once these buffs are applied, their offensive capability should be heavily tone down.

Atum
02-21-2010, 06:04 AM
Quag -instant
MoA -600ms
CR-6000ms
HI-4000ms
FMisty-2000ms

how fast are those combos

while
DD-6secs cast time for a low chance of Mode Cold for 3 secs
Arullo - 2 secs w/ catalyst

Some of the warlock skills you listed are singletarget (MoA and HI), you listed a wizard spell however you didnt list Scholars Fiberlock, Soul Siphon or dispel, which are also pretty important disabling/status skills.

Crimson rocks stun effect is barely noticeable and hardly ever triggers and it has chance to stun your allies, same with quagmire.
Yes, Dispel goes on your allies too but a) sometimes its good to dispel your allies and b) you'd be very stupid to do that on an ally that doesnt need it.

The casttimes you listed are base casttimes, a DD could be reduced up to 0.5 seconds total casttime and while DD has a much lower chance to status an enemy compared to warlocks skills if an enemy gets DD:Cold status he's pretty much dead since he cant use pots, attacks or move at all for the duration of the status effect, imagine a 1 vit character in current ROs woe, thats how deadly 3 seconds of not being able to do anything is (according to Yoyos Sorcerer compilation DD:Cold has a baseduration of 20 seconds, reduceable by level and vit, so on targets without max vit the duration will be longer).

I have even seen Cloud Kill taking down a high Lv. Arch Bishop with ~36Mdef in ~3s without the sorcerer using another skill, while proving to be a really potent Hit-locking AoE.Combo-idea :
Cloud kill + fiberlock + PW :D

Carrot
02-21-2010, 11:49 AM
Well to be fair, mode cold gets canceled with fire damage, and with dragon breath running amok in woe, it really won't have a chance to shine in team battles.
As Doddler pointed out, mode cold is much better against small skirmishes, where you can reliably control which attacks actually make it to the target. Arullo, however, can still be a very potent crowd control skill, even if it does get cancelled upon damage. With its relatively low skill delay, it can be used to supplement asura users (or any high burst killer), and slowly lock guilds with every cast, working kind of like hitlocking the enemies.

And is freezing that hard to remove? I thought you only needed to flash yourself in warmer once and come right back out to remove the status. Or do you remain in freezing status without the effect working while you're in warmer (or something like that)?

I also find that the sorcerer's (not scholar) variety of support/disable skills to be balanced and still quite powerful. Vacuum Extreme, regardless of whether STR reduces its duration and whatnot, is still an area disable, which will lock guilds in place (it's not like there's gonna be just ONE sorcerer casting VE). Diamond Dust has a very powerful effect, but with powerful fire-based skills running around, it makes them pretty balanced. Same with Arullo, it's a powerful AOE disable that can be spammed. Its gem cost might suck, but when has that ever posed a problem for scholars spamming dispel?

PanzeMagier
02-21-2010, 02:46 PM
The Sorcerer's grievance about underwhelming status infliction is almost just the same as the warlock's for the damage. So indeed the roles have switched which is just plain ridiculous. Sorcerers are dishing the damage while warlocks go into a freezing frenzy... This game has gone nuts...

Marloe
02-22-2010, 04:28 AM
yeah, tbh I think warlocks would on the whole be a lot happier with the Sorc's new damaging AoEs, and Sorcs might just like some of the new devastating statuses WLs have.

Lucentos
02-22-2010, 06:57 AM
I`m do hope, that next patch will bring us something interesting, regarding Warlock vs Sorcerer interference in roles.

Rumm
02-23-2010, 03:05 PM
If sorcerers were so gimped, then it wouldn't be the 2nd most popular class on RE WoE, What position are Warlocks in, again ?


lets see how much the warlock population changes when comet books are available. Atm for woe, id much rather prefer lock over sorc just for the ability to totally screw people and have some glass cannon burst damage. The main appeal of sorc is vacuum and especially deep sleep.

Also question: if i have 100% water resistance wouldn't that keep Frosty Misty from connecting and thus prevent freezing from occurring?

CrimsonFlame
02-23-2010, 11:07 PM
Also question: if i have 100% water resistance wouldn't that keep Frosty Misty from connecting and thus prevent freezing from occurring?

I believe you'd still get the freezing effect no matter what (even with 0 damage). I can't confirm this, but someone mentioned this a few weeks back on another thread.

~Fake
02-24-2010, 05:58 AM
Warlock gain 2 new books, but comet still easy to cast in woe because some woe causes [more warlocks in gvg, buffs, bragi,etc...]. Unlike tetra vortex, nobody use because the difficult to cast in case.
With book tetra vortex can become the asura strike of warlcok.

diamond dust effect
Stop movement, attack, use of skill and healing itens and drain 2% of hp and 1% of sp. Can be reduced by vit.
Freezing effect can be reduced?

Gio
02-24-2010, 06:04 AM
If sorcerers were so gimped, then it wouldn't be the 2nd most popular class on RE WoE, What position are Warlocks in, again ?


lets see how much the warlock population changes when comet books are available. Atm for woe, id much rather prefer lock over sorc just for the ability to totally screw people and have some glass cannon burst damage. The main appeal of sorc is vacuum and especially deep sleep.

Also question: if i have 100% water resistance wouldn't that keep Frosty Misty from connecting and thus prevent freezing from occurring?

Will probably go up at first, for like the following 2 or 3 weeks, 'cause the Warlocks that have given up on their class but are still Warlock on heart, will give it a shot and test if things get better. Once, they notice TV Book, and Comet Book aren't that great at all, things will go back to normal, and Warlocks will be as common in WoE, as Ice on a Volcano again.

Thats my guess.

CrimsonFlame
02-24-2010, 08:24 AM
I can see the only practical reason to use TV in siege would be a pure water-prop one (4 summoned water spheres). With everyone running around with unfrozen-fire armor now it could be potent (that's if...you can get one off without dying in the process).

Samias
02-24-2010, 02:00 PM
I don't think water TV will be that popular even with fire armors everywhere, if only because you can stack so much water resistance with KVM rings, nidhogg garment and a valk shield alone. Of course not as many people will carry shields anymore but some classes, such as archbishops, royal guards, possibly sorcerers, shadow chasers, and DB r.knights will probably default shields rather than two-handed weapons or one-hand-no-shield.

Rumm
02-24-2010, 02:02 PM
just es once or twice first to remove their resistance gear

Samias
02-24-2010, 10:43 PM
But then you wouldn't have TV ready to release! And thus you might as well just suicide with ES anyway because you'll be doing so much more to any guild that's not full chem protected.

Nretep
02-25-2010, 01:51 AM
But then you wouldn't have TV ready to release! And thus you might as well just suicide with ES anyway because you'll be doing so much more to any guild that's not full chem protected.why ? store up 2x EStrain and 1x TV.
summon balls
ES - 1s
ES - 1s
TV

but usually the first ball of TV is earth

Frost
02-25-2010, 01:55 AM
But then you wouldn't have TV ready to release!

Yes you could.

From the compilation:

Spell Slots Increasement: (4+4xSkillLv)Slots = 8~24 (Lv.1~Lv.5)
Spell Slots Formula: Freezing Spell Slots + <BLv/15> + <Int/10>

ES takes 12 slots, and TV takes 22 slots.

@Level 150 & 160 INT, with level 1 Freezing Spell you'd have 8 + 10 + 16 = 34 slots. Which is just enough for a memo'd ES+TV.

I'm not talking whether this is good or not, I'm just saying that it is possible.

@Nretep
The first hit of TV is usually Earth to prevent people from hiding. But since we're talking about instant-casting, it's not really needed. (Even if it's still possible to hide from instant cast skills which is just about as hard as hiding from an instant-cast Asura).

got4close
02-25-2010, 04:43 AM
@Nretep
The first hit of TV is usually Earth to prevent people from hiding. But since we're talking about instant-casting, it's not really needed. (Even if it's still possible to hide from instant cast skills which is just about as hard as hiding from an instant-cast Asura).
We had a drama few days ago on fRO because some people were using a third-party software to hide Guillotine Fist in a Ruwach. The same way it should not be that hard to avoid instant cast skills.

Prodigy
02-25-2010, 01:19 PM
I thought that a perfectly timed hide can really hide against ruwach+fist? At least on iRO, it is a well-known fact that players who are good at hiding can pull this off.

Hmm, I wish sorcs had ASS and Improvised Song, because it makes sense for them to have it (ASS:Hindsight, Improvised Song:Hocus Pocus), then I wouldn't mind sorcs were made to be less destructive than locks.

Nretep
02-25-2010, 04:17 PM
I thought that a perfectly timed hide can really hide against ruwach+fist? At least on iRO, it is a well-known fact that players who are good at hiding can pull this off.when you do it while walking, it's possible, that you run out of the radius of ruwach, while the champ is casting.
But it happens more often that asura hits even if you already saw the hide icon, than the oppisite

Atum
02-25-2010, 04:26 PM
I thought that a perfectly timed hide can really hide against ruwach+fist? At least on iRO, it is a well-known fact that players who are good at hiding can pull this off.when you do it while walking, it's possible, that you run out of the radius of ruwach, while the champ is casting.
But it happens more often that asura hits even if you already saw the hide icon, than the oppisite
You can hide even when standing in the area of ruwach.
When you use hide in the ruwach area there is a split of a second where you have hide-mode, right before ruwach reveals you again.
If you time it perfectly right asura misses, you dont have to walk to do that.

got4close
02-25-2010, 04:56 PM
But you can't really count on this reflex. And when you see it 2 or 3 times in a row on the same char, it stinks like ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥...

Inferno Nightblade
02-25-2010, 06:54 PM
Once, they notice TV Book, and Comet Book aren't that great at all, things will go back to normal, and Warlocks will be as common in WoE, as Ice on a Volcano again.
http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/mount-st-helens-wamsh1.jpg

...joking aside:

OT - with Asura, it may be a bit easier, due to aspd going up and cast time going down. Hiding a 130 dex (under old rules) Asura with 150 aspd is more difficult than hiding a 150 dex, 150 int Asura under new rules with 180 aspd.

Gio
02-25-2010, 06:57 PM
If sorcerers were so gimped, then it wouldn't be the 2nd most popular class on RE WoE, What position are Warlocks in, again ?


lets see how much the warlock population changes when comet books are available. Atm for woe, id much rather prefer lock over sorc just for the ability to totally screw people and have some glass cannon burst damage. The main appeal of sorc is vacuum and especially deep sleep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/r1LxsuRue_A&hl=es_ES&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/r1LxsuRue_A&hl=es_ES&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Count the amount of Sorcerers on Screen at any given momment, then count the amount of times you see One Warlock on the Screen. Then, try to imagine what will happen once they implement Mental Stick and Telekinetic Orbs in the game. And finally, tell me if you can still say "Sorcerers are gimped, Warlocks are better for WoE. Everything is fine", without lying to yourself.

CrimsonFlame
02-25-2010, 08:05 PM
Burst damage is no better than DoT damage in WoE when compared between WLs and Sorcs. If it doesn't OHKO the enemy will just pot back. Overall if you compare the matk output of the Sorc's DoT skills, versus the matk output of the WL's burst skills...Sorcs can achieve higher DPS. And since neither class can really effectively OHKO anyone due to resistance and basic skill limitations...the class with higher survivability and DPS is gonna be the more logical choice.

Q.E.D. this is why there is 15-20 Sorcs to every WL ratio.

Rumm
02-25-2010, 10:24 PM
@gio, ya...thats...ouch. Maybe it will change gradually as more are leveled? We can hope!

Lucentos
02-26-2010, 04:58 AM
I`m on Gio`s side. Facts tells, that Warlocks gimped, not Sorcerers. Sorcerers will be still useful, if they`re nerf their damage by 33% and then buff Warlock damage by 50%, as well as adding all Warlock skills damage affection by base Lvl.

Nretep
02-26-2010, 06:19 AM
I`m on Gio`s side. Facts tells, that Warlocks gimped, not Sorcerers. Sorcerers will be still useful, if they`re nerf their damage by 33% and then buff Warlock damage by 50%, as well as adding all Warlock skills damage affection by base Lvl.that'd be an 11,250% MAtk Comet (not amped) - about as powerful as TV currently, which oneshots alot - vs 5600% DoT PW

Gio
02-26-2010, 07:30 AM
5600% PW?, do you even know how does PW work?, PW deals over 12K% Matk with the right build, lol.

Atum
02-26-2010, 09:54 AM
I`m on Gio`s side. Facts tells, that Warlocks gimped, not Sorcerers. Sorcerers will be still useful, if they`re nerf their damage by 33% and then buff Warlock damage by 50%, as well as adding all Warlock skills damage affection by base Lvl.that'd be an 11,250% MAtk Comet (not amped) - about as powerful as TV currently, which oneshots alot - vs 5600% DoT PW
A sorcerer with 120 base int and 155 total int deals ~8400% damage with psychic wave, not 5600%.

@Gio : yea but thats probably with god items, lets not factor in these since these are supposed to be very powerful and the average caster sorcerer wont be able to use them.

Gio
02-26-2010, 10:06 AM
God items?, no

in RE, 120base int + 60 Int is not hard to pull out without God-likes. Thats 12000%Matk with 2x Telekinetic Orbs and 1 Mental Stick. Not even one God-item. If, we are to take into consideration God items, then the damage would be way too much more.


For 155Int, its 8557%Matk without Mental Stick or Orbs, ~10952%Matk with them on.

Nretep
02-26-2010, 10:41 AM
I`m on Gio`s side. Facts tells, that Warlocks gimped, not Sorcerers. Sorcerers will be still useful, if they`re nerf their damage by 33% and then buff Warlock damage by 50%, as well as adding all Warlock skills damage affection by base Lvl.that'd be an 11,250% MAtk Comet (not amped) - about as powerful as TV currently, which oneshots alot - vs 5600% DoT PWA sorcerer with 120 base int and 155 total int deals ~8400% damage with psychic wave, not 5600%.read my post again

God items?, no

in RE, 120base int + 60 Int is not hard to pull out without God-likes. Thats 12000%Matk with 2x Telekinetic Orbs and 1 Mental Stick. Not even one God-item. If, we are to take into consideration God items, then the damage would be way too much more.

For 155Int, its 8557%Matk without Mental Stick or Orbs, ~10952%Matk with them on.what about not mentioning the sorc equip until it's archieveable ?
you feel like this because I cannot bring the instant TV/ Comet anymore ? lol

Let's talk about the Damage on WereWolf, ZombieDragon or Kaho Horns ?

I calc with 1200% * 7 Hits, as Atum did.
I never thought you'd try to find any possible advantage for Sorcs but any possible disadvantage for WLs.
Maybe try to get on the side of your own class ?

Atum
02-26-2010, 11:18 AM
I calc with 1200% * 7 Hits, as Atum did.
Then why are you saying that PW is a 5600% damage over time skill although you calc with 8400% damage total?

what about not mentioning the sorc equip until it's archieveable ?
you feel like this because I cannot bring the instant TV/ Comet anymore ? lol
Well you always used comet- and TV-books as arguement and now that they are implemented its very safe to say Mental stick and Telekinetic orb get implemented very soon aswell.

s0937993174
02-26-2010, 11:41 AM
I calc with 1200% * 7 Hits, as Atum did.
Then why are you saying that PW is a 5600% damage over time skill although you calc with 8400% damage total?


Atum and Gio, there's apparantly a misunderstanding here.
Please read the following including wat Lucentos says

I`m on Gio`s side. Facts tells, that Warlocks gimped, not Sorcerers. Sorcerers will be still useful, if they`re nerf their damage by 33% and then buff Warlock damage by 50%, as well as adding all Warlock skills damage affection by base Lvl.that'd be an 11,250% MAtk Comet (not amped) - about as powerful as TV currently, which oneshots alot - vs 5600% DoT PW

Gio
02-27-2010, 07:04 AM
that'd be an 11,250% MAtk Comet (not amped) - about as powerful as TV currently, which oneshots alot - vs 5600% DoT PWA sorcerer with 120 base int and 155 total int deals ~8400% damage with psychic wave, not 5600%.read my post again

God items?, no

in RE, 120base int + 60 Int is not hard to pull out without God-likes. Thats 12000%Matk with 2x Telekinetic Orbs and 1 Mental Stick. Not even one God-item. If, we are to take into consideration God items, then the damage would be way too much more.

For 155Int, its 8557%Matk without Mental Stick or Orbs, ~10952%Matk with them on.what about not mentioning the sorc equip until it's archieveable ?
you feel like this because I cannot bring the instant TV/ Comet anymore ? lol

Let's talk about the Damage on WereWolf, ZombieDragon or Kaho Horns ?

I calc with 1200% * 7 Hits, as Atum did.
I never thought you'd try to find any possible advantage for Sorcs but any possible disadvantage for WLs.
Maybe try to get on the side of your own class ?

You are mistaking me with Atum, i've always been using both TV/Comet Spellbooks and telekinetic Orbs / Mental Stick on all of my calculations, 'cause i knew Spellbooks would be implemented, as i know that PW equip will be implemented too. I never told you or anybody to not count the books, not even once, that was atum.

While Atum and Me do agree on a lot of things, we are 2 different persons, and its not like we agree on everything, please do not consufe us with each other, as i never used someone else's post to talk you back.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say on the last part of your post, i did not even mention an advantage or disadvantage, all i did was state a fact, Psychic Wave can deal over 12K% Matk without god-like gear, thats a fact, and there no way someone can deny it, not even you.

I consider your last post a fail troll attempt xD. But, well whatever... Keep trying, maybe you'll make it right someday?.

Lucentos
02-27-2010, 09:52 AM
I`m guessing, that some misunderstooding came from my idea of "if they`re nerf their damage by 33% and then buff Warlock damage by 50%, as well as adding all Warlock skills damage affection by base Lvl." of one of my ideas. What will be in this situation?

Nretep
02-27-2010, 09:57 AM
I`m guessing, that some misunderstooding came from my idea of "if they`re nerf their damage by 33% and then buff Warlock damage by 50%, as well as adding all Warlock skills damage affection by base Lvl." of one of my ideas. What will be in this situation?the same as with rangers and minstrels.
Instead of continuously whining and complaining that minstrels are stronger, sorcs just know that gravity will balance the game asap

Professor X
02-27-2010, 10:42 AM
Mostly "hope" they balance the things. As it is now, with all the bugs in the mechanics, the unrevised second class skills and the delay in general in balancing things (yes shura i'm looking at you), renewal is a total mess.

Elie
02-28-2010, 10:39 AM
not only shuras
minstrels/wanderers disables are far better than the magician class' disables
casting times, delays and requirements are somewhat OP

so many thing...a total mess
pls do not rush things...
as important as these ones..

Professor X
02-28-2010, 01:56 PM
Well, the dissables from performer class are meant to do that, and that's the only thing that those skills do. On the Wizzard side, the skills are meant to deal damage and the disable thing is somewhat a plus for the skill (the only exception may be White Imprision). So I see a Natural thing that those disables seems to be better.

When I mentioned shura was to give an example on the delay on the balance, maybe because is the issue that most people is aware of on that topic.

On the unrevised second class skills I'm not talking about any 3rd class skills, but skills prerenewal that seem to be left by the developers, my favourite example is the Upgrade Weapon from Whitesmiths, that skill is job based and it only gives any advantage from job level 51 and beyond, so if you change a character that has that skill to mechanic, you encounter that your skill has become useless and your 10 job points inmediately are wasted.

Elie
03-01-2010, 01:47 AM
well.. with regards to performers disables
sorcs should be in par to them
when it comes to disables.
but look at Arullo and Deep Sleep Lullaby
casting times delays and requirements
they arent equal..
ARullo requires a gem for a lower chance than a solo DSL with no requirments
and larger AoE..

TeaRs
03-01-2010, 01:56 AM
The performer classes are designed for crowd control. Magicans are designed for damage, there is a difference.

Just think out of 3rd classes and look back at 2nd class jobs. Frost Joke vs Frost Nova.
Frost Joke is instant, spammable & screen wide AoE. Frost Nova has cast and small AoE. Similar concept there.

Sorcerers should no where near par for disables (esp in AoE) with performers. Warlocks however should be improved for wide crowd control.
Infact Professors has always being on the level of singular disable. Soul Siphon, Fibre Lock, Dispell, Soul Exhale, Stone Curse and Frost Diver, all single targets.

Elie
03-01-2010, 05:57 AM
Sorry im talking about disables of Sorc class not WLs

magician are for damage
then we had the improvement which are the wizards

however..Gravity created the Alternate jobs and created jobs that defy the common tradition of the 6 jobs...

Sage class was created for support and then disables..

so what you are saying that magician class should just be about damage is clearly wrong...that is why professors were given disables..

and on the first place Professor class was the first to be given with disables..
Sage class then became the Pioneer of annoyance and disables..
Sorc should be inpar with disables..they are the pioneer solo disablers..
and yet the performers outperformed the Sorc's in disables..

i dont really care whether its AoE or not...
what im pointing out is the capability to disable...

Sorcs where outperformed clearly by Performers with regards to disables

which i believe should not be the case...

Performers main purpose isnt crowd control its the Wiz class job for crowd control..
Performers job is for AoE support...not crowd control...they are single target nuker as well...
what you said about them is invalid for me...
and they do the support in Chorus...unlike now they do Disables SOLO..

Carrot
03-01-2010, 11:25 AM
One thing Renewal taught us is to break free from the preconceptions of roles that each class played. Sorcerers are no longer all about fully supporting the guild (they still can, but it's not as effective as compared to pre-Renewal), as they became more of a caster class, and Royal Guards are designed to be more offensive than being a support class.

I think asking for more efficient crowd control skills, whether they be single-target or AOE, may be asking for too much. They already have the magical AOE skills, and anything beyond that, I think is too much. As for Arullo, I'll agree its success and duration is a tad too low for its yellow gem consumption, but it can still be spammed. Maybe increase it's success/duration a bit and I think it's fine.

And am I the only one who thinks Vacuum Extreme is just a tad too strong? An AOE crowd control skill that has a relatively low cooldown compared to its duration which makes it "spammable", and easy to lock down groups of people at once. I mean STR reduces the duration, yeah, but if 2 or more Sorcerers were to combine Vacuums, they would essentially be able to permalock an area. From the videos and woes I've seen, much like pre-Renewal, sorcerers seem to be the one dictating the movement of the guild, pushing/defending via judicious use of Vacuum.

veniality
03-01-2010, 12:01 PM
People stuck in vacuum are only confined to that cell, they can still attack and do anything they want, plus people can snap out. Shove down an ME or destroy the sorcerer and that vacuum is gone. The sorcerer has to be right next to where they cast after all for the skill. It's not a safe position to be in.

Prodigy
03-01-2010, 01:09 PM
Something to think about real quick: If we made it so that a sorc's damage is clearly lower than a warlocks, what else is a sorc good for? I mean sage and scholar skills aside, it looks very clear that sorcs skills are leaning more on the damage side than the supportive side. I mean, DD and vacuum and deep sleep are good disables, but it feels repetitive. They're just mass 'hold victims in place' kind of statuses. I wouldn't mind if we had more unique disables like slow or a debuff that reduces a target's stats or something like that. Don't get me wrong, DD is awesome, if it wasn't for the fact that fire cancels it quite easily.

In any case, the sooner we get summons (if we really get to have one) the sooner we can separate the job of warlocks and sorcs.

Elie
03-01-2010, 01:31 PM
i dont think renewal is for breaking free from preconceptions

its for balance..and giving everyone the same capabilities is like playing another mmorpg..its not the answer for balance..

Sorcs should be still be able to dish out damage but not greater than a WL
as the line goes from mage class..dishing out damage would not leave Sorcs
instead they focus on the very foundation of magic..to its simplest form...
this way Sorcs gain the capability to disable...instead of inflicting Large damaage

if Gravity wants Sorcs to be more of damage. they shouldnt have given VE and statuses of Sorcs AoE..
they should have just gave Sorcs damage alone..like Shuras spamming great damage with no statuses

StarShadow
03-01-2010, 07:19 PM
Uh, I think one concept of renewal is to reverse/exchange the role of 3-1 and 3-2 classes.
Abilities of all classes are even redistributed. It's undoubtedly.

As for shura and AB,
shura got the buff abilities to raise people's MHP by 30% and cure ailments
AB got duple lights and many damage spells. Due to the low efficiency in healing with other new settings, many of them invest in agi and hit quite fast.

It's just one of the examples of the "reverse/exchange concept".
However, IMO this should not be taken as an excuse why WL should have lower damage efficiency.
The original role of the class still takes a better part of their skills and overall abilities.

The critical point is that the roles of WL and Sorc are overlapped greatly.
While Sorc got many “exchanged” spells and natural advantages, WL have more “unsatisfied” weakness.
Just want to point these out in advance. :)

D.

Lucentos
03-01-2010, 07:39 PM
About ABs - their damaging skills is pure crap, compared to Sura ones, and almost all AB buffs also pure crap. So ABs got short side of stick.

Veemon
03-02-2010, 03:43 AM
About ABs too - Crap on siege only I think... But IMO on PvM is another story

Prodigy
03-02-2010, 12:18 PM
Let me ask this, is there ANY situation where a warlock would be better in WoE than a sorc? I feel that the kRO WoE videos are unfair because it looks like all those kRO players are dps/killing addicts. I mean, performers have some very nice buffs, but you barely see them around. Heck, even ABs are scarce, even though it would be handy for them to throw mass KEs all the time, and any class that uses a skill with a casting time would benefit from Sacrament (see all those suras running around with painfully slow zen casting time, when they're in RD reuse delay). It just feels that kRO players in general are biased against supportive roles and a good majority of them just use damage dealing classes.

CrimsonFlame
03-02-2010, 02:13 PM
Let me ask this, is there ANY situation where a warlock would be better in WoE than a sorc? I feel that the kRO WoE videos are unfair because it looks like all those kRO players are dps/killing addicts. I mean, performers have some very nice buffs, but you barely see them around. Heck, even ABs are scarce, even though it would be handy for them to throw mass KEs all the time, and any class that uses a skill with a casting time would benefit from Sacrament (see all those suras running around with painfully slow zen casting time, when they're in RD reuse delay). It just feels that kRO players in general are biased against supportive roles and a good majority of them just use damage dealing classes.

I think renewal itself has created this bias since almost every class can deal effective damage now, but the old defensive classes still have the better survivability. Yes the performers have some great buffs, but on the other hand Sorcs and ABs pre-re buffs are pretty much useless. RGs are abandoning sac builds... it's just a mess right now.

Summing up renewal into 1 word is easy.....it's "offensive." Almost every class is getting more offensive skills without any new/buffs to the classic old defensive ones. What this has created is a realm where party-mechanics don't seem to apply anymore. Pretty much all the 3-1 classes are being rendered useless by the 3-2's until some serious balance happens.

Rumm
03-02-2010, 02:23 PM
^in general yes. Still the lack of seeing any Maelstrom or active use of Blinding Mist is somewhat strange. If there could be at least one anti AoE skill (with good use/duration being one of the big probs with mael). That will allow for folks to bundle up a bit more and move in sudo formations instead of gung ho mobs.
But then again, who wants to bundle in a group when that makes you easy pray for cursed circle and RB?

CrimsonFlame
03-02-2010, 08:01 PM
From the looks of it, ME is still the spell of choice for anti-AoE. With the new mechanics it's no where near as common as it was pre-re...but it shows up more than Mael has been in the recent vids.

I find my self thinking how unstoppable a guild of 40 or so Suras would be if it was formed before their fix came. It would be epic to get a vid of lol.

Rumm
03-03-2010, 01:03 PM
nah ME is only good vs sorc's. Most if not all warlock magic ignores it, Dragon Breath (8~10k fire damage ouch) ignores it, so does final strike (30~50k single dmg) and of coarse RB (1 million dmg aoe) (cc...not sure about actually). The main original WoE reason for ME was to counter storm gust. Now that SG is kinda obsolete it's counter is as well. For mael i suspect the rarity of maelstorm stems more from stalker players playing SC like stalkers and not like fs-scholars (not that i blame them)

a pure sura anything would be pretty amazing...pvm/mvp/woe. totally the best class in the game by a long shot.

CrimsonFlame
03-03-2010, 01:13 PM
Lol that's the very reason why it still shows up. Because of the lack of Warlocks. And even so with the recent rise of a few of them with Comet books. Me still blocks Comet and Earth Strain which seem to be pretty common because of damage and status capability. Crimson Rock is unheard of in siege because no one would risk stunning their own guildmates for mediocre damage (especially with everyone wearing unfrozen fires thanks to DB spam). I will say that DB's mechanics are really shit imo as it still exists as it's own entity. Ranged-area-physical-magic attack....lolwut?

The over-abundance of Sorcs spamming all their ground-based spells have lead to other Sorcs being their worse enemy. :p

Prodigy
03-03-2010, 01:16 PM
Haha, good point. If anything, Warlocks should whine about RK's DB and not Sorc's PW. High damage, decently spammable, cannot be reduced except by elemental armor, a ground targetted AoE ranged attack, and on and on.

Now imagine if Comet was ONLY reduceable by GR, that would be pretty interesting. In fact, that's sounds like a good way to really buff up comet.

CrimsonFlame
03-03-2010, 01:26 PM
Now imagine if Comet was ONLY reduceable by GR, that would be pretty interesting. In fact, that's sounds like a good way to really buff up comet.

Someone mentioned somewhere that making Comet deal "divine" damage (like GField and GD) would really boost it. It does sound like a good idea, but if such a thing were to be implemented they should take away the Comet Book. It would be almost a guaranteed OHKO (for most chars) near the center and since using release forces you to target someone...well you can see where I'm going lol.

Elie
03-04-2010, 01:46 PM
well the..if GRAVITY wants to boost all class to all offense and defense aspect..
then PW is fine as it is...its just than comet lacks.. something..

and a good idea is to look on all the other class..(looking at Shuras)

daddy21
03-08-2010, 03:04 AM
umm , is lucius[1] with evil druid possible?

what will happen with this? anyone?

Atum
03-08-2010, 03:13 AM
Card overrides natural armor element.
This means a fire armor with an evil druid card will become undead element armor.

CrimsonFlame
03-15-2010, 09:28 AM
then PW is fine as it is...its just than comet lacks.. something..

Since PW actually has a fair cast time now, it is fine as it is

but the issue isn't just Comet...compared to all other classes the damage output of WLs is just meh (for almost all skills). For a class that can be pwn'd just be looking at it....it should have skills that are actually feared to be hit by, not "oh look its a WL...ill just pot up and throw a pebble at him/her....that's all it takes to kill them anyway"

Elie
03-23-2010, 05:23 AM
for me its just Comet
other WL skills are fine...

its just that magic damage is not that good compared to physical
even Sorcs are affected by it
and Jack Frost not hitting MVP...

StarShadow
03-23-2010, 05:53 AM
IMHO grav should change these:

1. Raise the actual success rate of Sienna Execrate.
(75% up even with stat reduction)

=> So we can somehow fix the problem of low damage of CR(fire armor) and lack disable ailments.

2. Raise the actual success rate of White Imprison.
(75% up even with stat reduction, 85% or more when cast on the yourself)

=> self/allies defense and better disable ailments

IMO these 2 points are the most important ones.
With more success rate for these 2 spells,
WLs can do better combos, raising their survive chance and regain the ability to control the situation in WoE.


3. Make CL an "one time" spell.
(Cancel that the caster has to keep wield his/her staff. CL should be fully amp-able.)

4. Fix the damage output to MVP for magic users.
(High-End MVPs have too high Mdef, Grav should find a way to balance it.
And with some special adjustments, FM+JF should be able to hit MVPs.)

Without too much changes, these are the critical ones IMO.
So what do you magic users think?

D.

Lucentos
03-23-2010, 06:01 AM
About White Imprison - IMHO chance should be reducible by MDef of target and Warlock should be able to use WI on Allies to save their arses. Released spells should take MystAmp in full effect. CL should be also fully Ampable. All WL spells should recieve bonus from their Wizard spells as synergy. Reading Spellbook should have it`s Reuse delay removed.

Nretep
03-23-2010, 06:22 AM
1. Raise the actual success rate of Sienna Execrate.
(75% up even with stat reduction)

=> So we can somehow fix the problem of low damage of CR(fire armor) and lack disable ailments.

2. Raise the actual success rate of White Imprison.
(75% up even with stat reduction, 85% or more when cast on the yourself)

=> self/allies defense and better disable ailments

IMO these 2 points are the most important ones.
With more success rate for these 2 spells,
WLs can do better combos, raising their survive chance and regain the ability to control the situation in WoE.

3. Make CL an "one time" spell.
(Cancel that the caster has to keep wield his/her staff. CL should be fully amp-able.)1. sienna has unreduceable stonecurse. 75% would be gamebreaking

2. if so, make a fail WImp the WL, or at least full delay + reUse on fail

3. just tell gravity the exact code howto implement that with everyone satisfied, and I bet they'll implement it

Released spells should take MystAmp in full effect. All WL spells should recieve bonus from their Wizard spells as synergy. Reading Spellbook should have it`s Reuse delay removed.release should not take Amp

Reading could get a lower reuse, but not none.

StarShadow
03-23-2010, 09:24 AM
1. sienna has unreduceable stonecurse. 75% would be gamebreaking

2. if so, make a fail WImp the WL, or at least full delay + reUse on fail

3. just tell gravity the exact code howto implement that with everyone satisfied, and I bet they'll implement it


Reading could get a lower reuse, but not none.


1. (SE)Than make the petrified period reducible by INT & Mdef.

2. (WI)Still 0 delay, but triggers the reuse-delay everytime when WI is used.

3. (Release) Agree with lower reuse-delay. IMHO Release should not be combined with Amp otherwise it'll be OP.

However, INT should be able to raise your WeaponMatk with a fixed % per point as what STR & DEX effects W.Patk.

4. Well, I'd/we'd like to. But we don't know how to make them hear our voice XD

D.

Prodigy
03-23-2010, 12:43 PM
its just that magic damage is not that good compared to physical
even Sorcs are affected by it

Also, I'm annoyed by the fact the matk difference of the strongest 2-hand staff and the strongest 1-hand staff. Fine, 2-hand staffs should be stronger, that makes sense. But the matk difference is so great that we (both sorc and warlock) would have to use 2-hands if we wanna get a really good magical damage. Unless I'm wrong, according to Atum's list (http://forums.irowiki.org/showthread.php?t=24524), the strongest 2-hand staff has 280 matk (SoD-hwiz only) or 240 matk (chronos) while the strongest 1-hand staff has 170 matk (Eraser and LBW). We should at least have 1-hand staffs that aren't too far behind in matk while still making the 2-hand ones stronger.

Ars Exercitus
03-23-2010, 01:35 PM
Actually I like the way it is right now. (Not because WL Staffs have more MATK, but because 2h staffs haver more MATK.) You could narrow the gap a bit, but it seems as an improvement to me. If you want to be offensive now, you have to suffer from not carrying a shield. And it is even that shields aren't that effective anymore, so no problem for me.

veniality
03-23-2010, 03:22 PM
I prefer the gap otherwise it becomes what it was preRenewal where 2h staffs go back into the shadows. It would be nice if they had different bonuses tho to give different benefits of using a 1h other than the use of a shield.

Crazy Fox
03-23-2010, 09:16 PM
This isn't really a Warlock VS Sorceror argument but, I feel that luk simply doesn't do enough for casters in general.

Casters get 2 benefits (MATK/PDODGE)
Melee get 3 benefits (ATK/CRIT/PDODGE)

I can't really think of a benefit you could apply to casters that would be useful and not apply to melee, but it seems that this is one of those things that creates a gap.

Also buff Warlock damage by about 20% all around and they'd be fine.

Feral
03-24-2010, 12:20 AM
This isn't really a Warlock VS Sorceror argument but, I feel that luk simply doesn't do enough for casters in general.

Casters get 2 benefits (MATK/PDODGE)
Melee get 3 benefits (ATK/CRIT/PDODGE)

I can't really think of a benefit you could apply to casters that would be useful and not apply to melee, but it seems that this is one of those things that creates a gap.

Also buff Warlock damage by about 20% all around and they'd be fine.

Well the discussion isn't "Magic Vs. Melee", Doddler has already proven that there are a couple of holes in the magic damage formula. Spells shouldn't really crit for obvious reasons, though it would be cool to see a "Lucky Cast" effect. In this effect per-say the Non-variable cast time would be halved. Though even so, QQing about everything Melee gets when Magic doesn't is kind of rhetorical since 3/13 of the main cast are casters (just under 1/4th), so having 9/10s of the same mechanical support from stats is pretty good, especially considering the situation pre-renewal where only 2 stats had any real baring. What I would like to see though is the difference in numbers if the Magic Damage formula was adjusted to parallel the melee one. Up until now I thought the answer was to say to hell with racial reductions on casting (though I've also thought that changing the way players can reduce damage from other players is also a solid idea), but it could be an even simpler answer than that. :P I might take the liberty of crunching the numbers myself if I get bored enough.

veniality
03-24-2010, 12:03 PM
Would be nice if luk did something like create less variance in matk damage and go closer to max matk or something similiar. So it wouldn't further improve your max damage but it would very slightly improve your overall damage.

Crazy Fox
03-24-2010, 12:48 PM
Would be nice if luk did something like create less variance in matk damage and go closer to max matk or something similiar. So it wouldn't further improve your max damage but it would very slightly improve your overall damage.

Pointless for Warlocks (Recognized spell) but ok for sorcs I guess? Not that they need help.

veniality
03-24-2010, 02:38 PM
Would be nice if luk did something like create less variance in matk damage and go closer to max matk or something similiar. So it wouldn't further improve your max damage but it would very slightly improve your overall damage.

Pointless for Warlocks (Recognized spell) but ok for sorcs I guess? Not that they need help.

I always forget that skill for some reason. :facepalm:
Sorcs don't need more buffs and other magic classes would benefit from an idea like that as well, not just sorcs. But it would be nice if it gave a bonus of some sort along those lines.

StarShadow
03-24-2010, 07:04 PM
Cut a little bit of fixed cast time?
(I know that also benefits other classes, but it's more useful to caster ones.)

Make a formula like the cast time one, a 15% or so would be nice.

Anyway, Sorc is going to get their summon spells and there's no reason playing WL.
I don't even want to argue WL are weak, can't anyone recognize it?
And even if they buff WL damage to 2 times stronger the skill concept is still boring compared with the versatile skills Sorc has.

- Just like all 3-2 classes have better options in skills and abilities than all 3-1 classes.

And why should our (casters) Matk being tuned down greatly and fully reduced by demi-human cards,
than use some limited colorful ground skills to raise our damage to 150% or 150%*125% ?
More convenient for muscular enemies (physical attackers) to find us and being killed -.-?

D.

FlameTyrant
03-24-2010, 07:15 PM
i guess they should add maybe 2 more spells to the WL skill tree, like other Lightining skill and who knows...and also they should low the prereqs for TV for make it more viable and maybe combine with recognized spell...dunno maybe give them more hp too or low a bit the cast but thats irrelevant i guess

Crazy Fox
03-24-2010, 10:03 PM
i guess they should add maybe 2 more spells to the WL skill tree, like other Lightining skill and who knows...and also they should low the prereqs for TV for make it more viable and maybe combine with recognized spell...dunno maybe give them more hp too or low a bit the cast but thats irrelevant i guess


No no more skills. Cut down the points for lots of current skills and change how they work.

Points are already hard enough with only 50 jobs =/

Feral
03-24-2010, 10:13 PM
i guess they should add maybe 2 more spells to the WL skill tree, like other Lightining skill and who knows...and also they should low the prereqs for TV for make it more viable and maybe combine with recognized spell...dunno maybe give them more hp too or low a bit the cast but thats irrelevant i guess

While that's a good thought that'd just be more distressful on the job altogether. The Wizard job has always been used and loved for it's linearity, meaning that it doesn't require hours of complex thought to formulate a workable build, all that was necessary was an AoE nuke, a good mage setup and assorted spells which worked to the user's advantage. Problem being now that Warlock has too many skills on a duality of skill trees almost giving Warlock too much dynamic to maintain it's linear status. Personally I like the Warlock skilltree (and considered making a Warlock because of it) even though I'm used to jobs which require more thought on the specifics of building. While there was speculation about the cause of Warlock's weakness, Doddler brought an interesting point to light that the casting formula hasn't evolved like the Phys. formula, which accounts for the higher modifiers on most casts and lower magic defense on most creatures and characters not showing themselves in-game. =\

Nretep
03-25-2010, 02:31 AM
The Wizard job has always been used and loved for it's linearity, meaning that it doesn't require hours of complex thought to formulate a workable build, all that was necessary was an AoE nuke, a good mage setup and assorted spells which worked to the user's advantage. Problem being now that Warlock has too many skills on a duality of skill trees almost giving Warlock too much dynamic to maintain it's linear status. Personally I like the Warlock skilltree (and considered making a Warlock because of it) even though I'm used to jobs which require more thought on the specifics of building. While there was speculation about the cause of Warlock's weakness, Doddler brought an interesting point to light that the casting formula hasn't evolved like the Phys. formula, which accounts for the higher modifiers on most casts and lower magic defense on most creatures and characters not showing themselves in-game. =\the problem is, that WLs used to be Wizards, and Wizards used to be SG users. No second skill, only SG. And now SG has been modified and there's no replacement that used to be like SG - a skill for simply everything
They used to have the status of getting one skill and being useful in almost any situation, getting mid int would be enough and high dex to make it even spamable.

Feral
03-25-2010, 02:51 AM
The Wizard job has always been used and loved for it's linearity, meaning that it doesn't require hours of complex thought to formulate a workable build, all that was necessary was an AoE nuke, a good mage setup and assorted spells which worked to the user's advantage. Problem being now that Warlock has too many skills on a duality of skill trees almost giving Warlock too much dynamic to maintain it's linear status. Personally I like the Warlock skilltree (and considered making a Warlock because of it) even though I'm used to jobs which require more thought on the specifics of building. While there was speculation about the cause of Warlock's weakness, Doddler brought an interesting point to light that the casting formula hasn't evolved like the Phys. formula, which accounts for the higher modifiers on most casts and lower magic defense on most creatures and characters not showing themselves in-game. =\the problem is, that WLs used to be Wizards, and Wizards used to be SG users. No second skill, only SG. And now SG has been modified and there's no replacement that used to be like SG - a skill for simply everything
They used to have the status of getting one skill and being useful in almost any situation, getting mid int would be enough and high dex to make it even spamable.

Eh, that's a bit to assuming, I've met some monster LoV and MS Wizzys, but it is true that as a rule of thumb most Wizzys keep atleast a Lv5 SG (even the mentioned LoV-fiends). But on the other end of the argument, SG turning into a spell like any other is for the best. The linearity of Wizards always made them wonderful to have along, but there is such a thing as too much linearity and renewal put a stop to that. There really shouldn't be an end-all-be-all spell, just like there shouldn't be end-all-be-all skills for any job. So while I agree that the Warlock needs to stay linear, I rather like that the job is forced to use spells from all 3 jobs in an intelligent manner as opposed to just lobbing around the same spell until something picks them off.

Nretep
03-25-2010, 02:55 AM
Eh, that's a bit to assuming, I've met some monster LoV and MS Wizzys, but it is true that as a rule of thumb most Wizzys keep atleast a Lv5 SG (even the mentioned LoV-fiends). But on the other end of the argument, SG turning into a spell like any other is for the best. The linearity of Wizards always made them wonderful to have along, but there is such a thing as too much linearity and renewal put a stop to that. There really shouldn't be an end-all-be-all spell, just like there shouldn't be end-all-be-all skills for any job. So while I agree that the Warlock needs to stay linear, I rather like that the job is forced to use spells from all 3 jobs in an intelligent manner as opposed to just lobbing around the same spell until something picks them off.Like CRock, EStrain and CL/ JFrost ?
But the WL players want every of those as useful as preRE SG

Feral
03-25-2010, 03:04 AM
Eh, that's a bit to assuming, I've met some monster LoV and MS Wizzys, but it is true that as a rule of thumb most Wizzys keep atleast a Lv5 SG (even the mentioned LoV-fiends). But on the other end of the argument, SG turning into a spell like any other is for the best. The linearity of Wizards always made them wonderful to have along, but there is such a thing as too much linearity and renewal put a stop to that. There really shouldn't be an end-all-be-all spell, just like there shouldn't be end-all-be-all skills for any job. So while I agree that the Warlock needs to stay linear, I rather like that the job is forced to use spells from all 3 jobs in an intelligent manner as opposed to just lobbing around the same spell until something picks them off.Like CRock, EStrain and CL/ JFrost ?
But the WL players want every of those as useful as preRE SG

Well the simple fact is that they cannot be, so when they produce reasonable damage, then the players will have to learn to adapt, and use different spells for different situations.

Ars Exercitus
03-25-2010, 03:13 AM
Yeah, as if there was no WL player who ever was able to pull off great combos -_- The problem in my opinion is more like we die to fast. Where's the sense in thinking of possible combos if the only thing that's working is burst damage that OHKOs? I can pull off a great combo in 20 seconds or something, but do you really think I will stay alive long enough for that? And there isn't even counted in that my enemies just pot their HP to full inbetween my huge cast times. That's the problem

And for sure SG was our main spell. But where is the sense in toning it down? Leave it as it was! Now Sorcerers got the new SG in neutral DMG form... does that mean you are now the linear job?

Feral
03-25-2010, 03:26 AM
Yeah, as if there was no WL player who ever was able to pull off great combos -_- The problem in my opinion is more like we die to fast. Where's the sense in thinking of possible combos if the only thing that's working is burst damage that OHKOs? I can pull off a great combo in 20 seconds or something, but do you really think I will stay alive long enough for that? And there isn't even counted in that my enemies just pot their HP to full inbetween my huge cast times. That's the problem

And for sure SG was our main spell. But where is the sense in toning it down? Leave it as it was! Now Sorcerers got the new SG in neutral DMG form... does that mean you are now the linear job?

Psychic Wave was toned down, but I don't think it really was the "New SG" accept for a brief period. As a rule of thumb most X-2 jobs aren't linear at all. It really shouldn't be so hard to mix instant-casts with timed casts if you setup your hot-keys correctly and Warlock has White Imprison, Quagmire/Marsh of Abyss and Frost Driver among other things to slow other players or monsters down. I hate to be blunt, but Gravity's job is to create a job that functions, not a job that holds your hand and works on autopilot.

Gio
03-25-2010, 03:35 AM
The Wizard job has always been used and loved for it's linearity, meaning that it doesn't require hours of complex thought to formulate a workable build, all that was necessary was an AoE nuke, a good mage setup and assorted spells which worked to the user's advantage. Problem being now that Warlock has too many skills on a duality of skill trees almost giving Warlock too much dynamic to maintain it's linear status. Personally I like the Warlock skilltree (and considered making a Warlock because of it) even though I'm used to jobs which require more thought on the specifics of building. While there was speculation about the cause of Warlock's weakness, Doddler brought an interesting point to light that the casting formula hasn't evolved like the Phys. formula, which accounts for the higher modifiers on most casts and lower magic defense on most creatures and characters not showing themselves in-game. =\the problem is, that WLs used to be Wizards, and Wizards used to be SG users. No second skill, only SG. And now SG has been modified and there's no replacement that used to be like SG - a skill for simply everything
They used to have the status of getting one skill and being useful in almost any situation, getting mid int would be enough and high dex to make it even spamable.

Its hard for me to get irritated, and i don't usually use Caps on a post, but i guess there is no other way now.

This is an insult, i don't know whats wrong with you or in what LowLevel Server of the world were you raised, i'll tell you what take Any Character you Want, I take my Pre-Re High Wizard and i'll show you how to kill an enemy with a combo you have never seen, and how stupid is a Wizard that knows only how to Spam SG. What you said simply proves you dont know anything about Wizard class, you never played the class, or if you did, you were the worst Wizard in history.

The problem Wth Warlocks skills is the fact THAT WE ARE THE CLASS WITH LESS HP IN THE GAME AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE, BUT THERE ARE OTHER CLASSES WITH DOUBLE THE HP, VERSATILITY, AND DEFENSES THAT DEAL BETTER AND FASTER AOE DAMAGE THAN A WARLOCK WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU PLAY A CLASS LIKE THAT? UNDERSTAND THAT? OR IS IT TOO HARD FOR YOU?


@Feral:
Building up a Wizard is Simple?, are you serious?, maybe a second-grade Wizard. I find Pre-Re Sinx, and Champion the easiest to build classes

PWave was toned down, sure, but it was also fixed, and the only 'Nerf' Remaining is its Variable Casting time, which can be easily reduced with a Mental Stick. Want me to show you just how much superior is PWave when compared to anything a Warlock can ever pull off?

Either you are not well updated, your source of information is wrong, or you are trying to lie to yourself. Psychic Wave is still Incredibly Powerful, much more than anything a Warlock can do. Jobs that work like autopilot? oh you mean Shura, and... Royal Guard, and... Sorcerers right?, yeah, yeah, Gravity did well programming auto-pilot there.

Ars Exercitus
03-25-2010, 03:57 AM
What's wrong with you guys? Even if you don't believe Gio and me, trust the facts pls: Almost NO warlock player around in videos!!! Why is that? Because they suck to play! Do you really think every single player that used to play warlock is just to dumb to pull off good combos? It's just that any other class (except ranger perhaps xD) is better...

StarShadow
03-25-2010, 04:08 AM
The Wizard job has always been used and loved for it's linearity, meaning that it doesn't require hours of complex thought to formulate a workable build, all that was necessary was an AoE nuke, a good mage setup and assorted spells which worked to the user's advantage. Problem being now that Warlock has too many skills on a duality of skill trees almost giving Warlock too much dynamic to maintain it's linear status. Personally I like the Warlock skilltree (and considered making a Warlock because of it) even though I'm used to jobs which require more thought on the specifics of building. While there was speculation about the cause of Warlock's weakness, Doddler brought an interesting point to light that the casting formula hasn't evolved like the Phys. formula, which accounts for the higher modifiers on most casts and lower magic defense on most creatures and characters not showing themselves in-game. =\the problem is, that WLs used to be Wizards, and Wizards used to be SG users. No second skill, only SG. And now SG has been modified and there's no replacement that used to be like SG - a skill for simply everything
They used to have the status of getting one skill and being useful in almost any situation, getting mid int would be enough and high dex to make it even spamable.

Eh, that's a bit to assuming, I've met some monster LoV and MS Wizzys, but it is true that as a rule of thumb most Wizzys keep atleast a Lv5 SG (even the mentioned LoV-fiends). But on the other end of the argument, SG turning into a spell like any other is for the best. The linearity of Wizards always made them wonderful to have along, but there is such a thing as too much linearity and renewal put a stop to that. There really shouldn't be an end-all-be-all spell, just like there shouldn't be end-all-be-all skills for any job. So while I agree that the Warlock needs to stay linear, I rather like that the job is forced to use spells from all 3 jobs in an intelligent manner as opposed to just lobbing around the same spell until something picks them off.

@ Nretep
So can I say all Sorcs are now all used to VE, PW, and DD?

This is not a fair accusation.
You can't rationalize your point by providing a bias, not all Wizs fit what you said.

However, I have to say that many, maybe 70% or so, Wizs are too used to SG, especially after the Nameless Island came out.
After more than a year, the special requirement to hunt in the 3rd floor has been widely spread.
It's too easy for people level there now, so plenty of HW pop up around the road.

I call these amateurs "The HWs by the roadside."

Still, you can't deny that there are players who use and mix other spells, so I don't think that excuse can palter with us. (No offence)

@ Gio
Well...... don't be so angry about it, we're all used to it, don't we ;)

@ Feral
Your words are beautiful but it's somehow the sentences are too close together for me to read.
I could only replied them slow, plz forgive me about it.

IMO the concept for Grav to design the class, Warlock,
is to ask multiple WLs to work together, mix the spells each people skilled with, and thus to form a greater result.
And that is what I call Synergy.
This somehow performed the original concept which wrote about "Spell for many WLs to cast, combined for greater function."

So I'd say the complexity in WL skills is intentionally.

One WL should be able to handle his/her previous (1st & 2nd class) spells well,
in accordance with the "linear" skill concept, and specialize on certain 3rd spells.
You can't simply max all of spells, you have to specialize in certain ones and work with others.
As for WLs,
they need even precise and delicate operation to mix their spells in order to create synergy, thus defeat their enemies.

It's not casting unlimited spammable 0 cast time SG like a retard.


But apparently Grav don't put WL in their eyes, WL spells lose preciseness.
The spells are stuffed with poor success rate and comparably useless ailments.
And now even if you combined several WLs, they're still in a great weakness toward a team of Sorcs.


Briefly look at the Sorc's summon skill tree:

First is that it's too loose for the skill tree limitation,
These skills were all like only 3 point to end a one, and thier prerequisite were nothing but 3 points in the Elemental AoE (and the like).

This means that it's easy for Sorcs to get many skills in many aspects to use,
including AoE damage, E.spirits to attack, targeted and grounded buff/debuff, and strong disable ailments.


Second, the summon skill tree includes not only grounded elemental buff, but also spirits to attack.
In other words, even the whole buff build gain strong attack ability!

These buffs somehow, if I read correctly, satisfied Nretep's early complains that Sorcs don't have Amp to raise their damage.
By simply invest in the element you like for damage AoE and spirits,
the Sorc can use VE to suck all the targets onto the E.damage buffing area, thus raise the Sorc's damage to 150%
or even 150%*125% (187.5%), which is even higher than Amp, and it lasts more than just one spell.

Besides, not merely 4, if we look into these ground E. buffs,
Every level of them serves a different function, they are actually 4*3=12 different buffs!


On the tragic contrast, Warlocks have only many more weakness and spells that lack conscientious design and precise ailment functions.

The only chaos WL creates is for the class itself.

D.


By the way,

1. I think we can just wait-and-see, or disguise in a Sorcerer's outfit.
2. I realized the blemishes in Matk formula much more early when most people were celebrating STR/DEX gives 0.5% (corrected) of wPatk. -.-

Anyway...

Feral
03-25-2010, 04:33 AM
@Gio-
I didn't mean that as an insult in any way, as I meant the basic Wizard, not the High Wizard which is effected by trans gear, 20 extra skill points, trans skills etc.

However, I don't recall Earth Grave stripping it's targets, Diamond Dust hitting it's target 3 times, Vacuum Extreme having an option to use it for damage output or Sorcerer ever getting a Shadow Property spell.

Also, please be mindful that Warlock's last review was in October, right after the release of Sorcerer, so there wasn't enough time for Grav to get the review of the players' findings (kRO players usually get the same or similar conclusions as us westerners). Sorcerer was reviewed in January, and after 3-2 review, there will likely be a mechanics review, and then a 3-1 review, and a 3-2 review. So with this in mind, it's likely that Warlock will see some justice.

I commend your passion, but this is merely conjecture, a point where several point of views come together and hopefully everyone learns something from it.

Gio
03-25-2010, 04:41 AM
There is a problem here. Gravity is a company, supposed to work with profesionals at their dispossal, its not like is an amateur trying to release a game.

Gravity is supposed to be a "Serious" company, they started working on this patch more than a year ago, and its still nowhere near completed, the result is chaos, and no-balance is seen at all, the state of Ragnarok is many times worse than what it was Pre-Re, and its the first time i hear of a patch that takes more than a year to complete.

Even if they do fix everything in say another year, there is no changing the fact that they failed, and Renewal is Crap. They completly Destroyed KRO too, or do you think its fair, to say "Its okay", once they fix MvPs/Ways to Abuse them, when many people has toyed and monopolized them due to the stupidity of Gravity?, Do you know what will happen to the economy 'cause of the Two-shotting High End MvPs Classes out there?, even if this does get fixed later ?