Who is Better at woe?

[Sparkous]

Bow or Dagger/Sword Stalker, which is better at woe?

[Divine~]

Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I gotta go with bow unless its a recaller, then I say sword/dagger

[Swifthand]

Why would a Recaller want to be Dagger necessarily?
I personally think the opposite. Dagger can pull off more BB damage, still wear a shield, and strip decently enough.
DEX-based really shines as a Recaller as you don't do as much damage-attacking anyway and you can focus more on VIT, VIT and more VIT.

[Sho Lin]

Quite honestly str stalkers are quite moot. (all of this is based on woe.)

The target you striped is crippled it's going to die anyways
Your bb damage will will suck even when your target is striped
If you're a stalker BB'ing when you can strip another person, do /wristsAlso, don't be an moron and use bb as a bow stalker in woe. Use flying kick with status weapons, it's VERY annoying.

[Pantsu]

Why do str stalkers have to use BB in siege then? It's just as good to use flying kick. I know stalkers aren't the premier emp breakers and in alot of situations should be doing something else. But I cannot tell you how many times I've stripped all other enemies going for an emp and broken it myself, or just fk'ed/stealthed/stalked to an emp (sadly undetected at all alot of times) and broken it.

[Sho Lin]

If I want to emp break I'll use a sinX or lk.
Breakers should be coated.

What's to say I can't strip then use an ice pick to break?

and those people should /wrist

[Pantsu]

Isn't that what I said?

And I rarely run into people using coats. Even if they were, how does being a dex stalker give an advantage over coated people?

[Sho Lin]

Just saying as a dex stalker you still can break. I never stated that either or has an advantage. I said breakers should be coated.

If a dagger stalker solo's a castle they should hang their heads in shame.

A dex stalker can do what a dagger stalker can do, and has more surviving stats. I wouldn't even really call them "bow" stalkers.

[rene]

Bow is most definitely better for WoE.

[crash]

Bow. With Gym Passes, I think that the big advantage of being a STR Stalker lost it's appeal. Your Chase Walk cast time is going to be painfully long with most STR Stalkers, which is really ironic since they're the ones that are going to want to STR bonus that it gives. Not to mention you'll strip a little worse (not that much, but sometimes even 1% more can make or break a castle).

[OrderDisorder]

It's like crash said, with gym passes you have most of the weight limit that you could achieve with STR, and your DEX greatly effects the skills your more commonly going to be using. Also, the less need to spread your stats out allows you to focus more on VIT, which is always a plus.

[ZephyrShakuraus]

Any Stalker who is seriously trying to kill makes me sad.

[Atum]

Any Stalker who is seriously trying to kill makes me sad.
Why?
When there is nothing else to do (aka stripping) its better to try to kill people than standing around, besides i guess they can do quite some damage on fullstripped enemies.

[Feint]

I really think stalkers shouldn't do anything but strip and recall in WoE(and whatever these things require, Flying Kick and so on). Wasting SP for Bowling Bash when you're overweighted doesn't seem smart to me, especially when you shouldn't even have the skill copied. There are many better classes for the damage dealing, your job is stripping.

I would choose dagger/sword stalker if it had high Str, Dex and Vit. If that's supposed to mean some kind of Str/Dex/Agi hybrid with barely 50 Vit, I'd choose bow.

[saitorashi]

I think in woe I get to the point sometimes that I just drop trying to strip people and just try to add damage on top to kill whoever is trying to invade. Opposite of Pantsu, I run into a lot of people using full chemical protect, and it's retarded how no one can get rid of it. So I just start Bowling Bashing.

My stalker is Bow/Dagger hybrid (and probably the only one), and I have seiged with him many times. Sometimes, I feel that even with 110 dex, strip chances are just crap. After about three tries of stripping and failing, I just resort to Bowling Bashing.

My tactic is normally get the enemy in a position to freeze (Strip, break their armor, etc.) and then switch to bow ,if the situation dictates it, to finish them off.

I think we all have our styles of playing a stalker. Like I think Joe your style was using Acid Terror with Sword breaker? I can't remember, it was long ago.

Some of you say that with no str you can just get gym passes to increase your weight limit. That is true, though Str stalkers can also get them and have a lot more weight capacity than their bow cousins.

Now to be on topic, I wouldn't mind if my stalker had like 120+ str, instead of dex... For damage, it's hard to find a good situation to use the bow in. I would have rather resorted to using a dagger or sword, though my stalker's str is just a tad bit low. Again, this is just my opinion that I had gathered up from seiging on my present stalker.

[saitorashi]

To add on the my earlier post, nothing I said was based on Flying Kick. If all you are going to do is Flying Kick and Strip, then I would say go dex, since Flying Kick's damage sucks anyways.

[Avarah]

Stalkers who use bowling bash get a bad wrap. I have 122 str with buffs and I can kill plenty of people in WoE. It's easily spammable and most of my targets either fall or burn whites. Stripping is easy with bow or sword if you have enough dex. I'd rather be able to wear a shield and be in the front line. I break at least one emp a woe with an ice pick. It's not as fast as a crit sinx breaking, but I've been able to outbreak large guild emps and send them home.

It's been mentioned that sword stalkers are more fun. I agree bow is better in pvm, but in woe both breeds can succeed. If I was going to fullstrip all the time and not finish an opponent I'd find myself being killed more, especially without vit. I can also use flying kick and divest if the situation requires mobility. Fullstrip is also spammable and the success rate difference between 99 dex and the 78 dex of a good sword stalker is negligible.

I also know two sword stalkers who recall with great success. The added endurance of vit and shield goes a long way.

[Feint]

I also know two sword stalkers who recall with great success. The added endurance of vit and shield goes a long way.

??????????????:confused::confused::confused:

[crash]

Avarah, if you're saying that Bow Stalkers don't wear a shield or have more room in their stat builds for VIT, I have to say that you're sadly mistaken. If a recalling DEX Stalker is in any sort of threatening situation and still keeps their bow on, they really deserve to be slapped.

[OrderDisorder]

I'd rather be able to wear a shield and be in the front line.

Bow stalkers don't have their bows equipped during woe lol, not only that but most DEX builds tend to have more VIT than STR builds.
Bow stalkers trying to go around and kill people would be wasting their intimidate spot, when they could better use it for flying kick, Also, foregoing a cranial to equip a bow is just... lol.

[Pantsu]

I think in woe I get to the point sometimes that I just drop trying to strip people and just try to add damage on top to kill whoever is trying to invade. Opposite of Pantsu, I run into a lot of people using full chemical protect, and it's retarded how no one can get rid of it. So I just start Bowling Bashing.

My stalker is Bow/Dagger hybrid (and probably the only one), and I have seiged with him many times. Sometimes, I feel that even with 110 dex, strip chances are just crap. After about three tries of stripping and failing, I just resort to Bowling Bashing.

My tactic is normally get the enemy in a position to freeze (Strip, break their armor, etc.) and then switch to bow ,if the situation dictates it, to finish them off.

I think we all have our styles of playing a stalker. Like I think Joe your style was using Acid Terror with Sword breaker? I can't remember, it was long ago.

Some of you say that with no str you can just get gym passes to increase your weight limit. That is true, though Str stalkers can also get them and have a lot more weight capacity than their bow cousins.

Now to be on topic, I wouldn't mind if my stalker had like 120+ str, instead of dex... For damage, it's hard to find a good situation to use the bow in. I would have rather resorted to using a dagger or sword, though my stalker's str is just a tad bit low. Again, this is just my opinion that I had gathered up from seiging on my present stalker.

Man acid terror was fun, but way too lazy to hunt supplies for it anymore. And yeah, the argument that with gym passes str stalkers are useless because you can get decent weight without str never made sense to me. It's not like str stalkers can't get it. Now I haven't gotten it on my stalker yet because I rarely ever use it, but it'd have 7000 weight if I got it.

I'm not saying dex doesn't have its advantages, just none that are that appealing to me. The only way I'd see myself going dex stalker is as a recaller (and only for the stealth cast time). Yeah, my cast time isn't that great, but it's not hard at all to flying kick away to an area to get a stealth off with low dex. The difference of vit can be a preference. For me 70 vit is enough on a stalker. I'd only get more vit for more hp, but the hp boost isn't that much so I don't really want anymore. But, if you feel like you need more I guess dex is a better choice.

And as for the you can hit the emp with an ice pick as a dex stalker. Technically I guess you could, but don't make it seem like it'd be the same effect as a str stalker. Most dex stalkers I see now are getting 1 str 1 agi (most, not all). So a stalker with 98 dex 1 agi 1 str with stealth 5 str bonus hits an emp for just under 600 to just over 600 with double attack. Alone, it'd break an emp in 95 seconds. My stalker (which is built quite shittily) hits the emp for 1.2 to 1.4k double attacks. It'd break an emp alone in 33 seconds. While neither are eating through the emp like a lk/sinx, my stalker would be able to make a noticeable contribution on it if needed. And yes, I have broken an alliance emp by myself (not myself vs the alliance but the only person on the emp). Is it sad? Yes, but is it possible? Also, yes.

[Yansibar]

I play a str based stalker in woe, and I don't think I'd ever want to try it on a bow one. I can carry alot of shit around, and don't usualy run out of pots that easily. I don't usualy find myself BBing that much in woe though, usualy im just stripping. I find my survivability rate to be extremely high do to the large amount of whites I can carry. I pretty much only die when they run out or if I get fisted or something.

[Lane]

My dex based stalker never brings his bow into WoE. I have alot of carry weight due to gym passes. With Link, I can carry easily like what 250+ Ranked slims? ANd 4 of those fully heal me? I dont think I'll ever run into a situation where I need more than 250 ranked with a link in a single attack.

ever. Extra carry weight is kind of moot. (Also considering Im getting near 5x base str as well) I am also a recaller.

[Pantsu]

Not everyone always uses ranked slims all the time. I generally use ranked fats, because I don't feel like paying 5m in slims per siege. You're also not always going to be able to access storage (unless you use those kafra things) and having more initial supplies will leave you with more when you need to stay in the fort.

[crash]

Not everybody always has rogue link either - using Ranked Slims without rogue link is still amazing when you afford to get as much VIT as bow stalkers normally have. It's still only 8 pots to fill you all the way up instead of 4.
I guess when I look at the fact that you can get 40 STR worth of weight capacity with $5, I see a big notch cut down in a lot of the reasoning to make a STR based stalker over a bow one.

[Nails]

dagger- cause after stripping or finding out that many are coated, you have something else you can do (break emp).

[Lane]

dagger- cause after stripping or finding out that many are coated, you have something else you can do (break emp).


No.You're bad at this game.

Dagger stalkers are a wannabe LK in breaktime/Bowling bash damage. Might as well be Dex so you CAN strip well, and afford the extra Vit/Int.

[Sho Lin]

With any low dps characters it's just cross your fingers. Which you can do with a dex stalker as well. I laugh at the retards that start BB'ing someone else and let me get by. When they should of striped that person then used flying kick and then strip me. Or when they strip me and a priest out heals his bowling bash.

The only advantage of a str stalker is more dps on the emp.

Str advantage

DPS on the empdex advantage

faster stalk cast time
more sp
more vit
better strip chance
better recaller
can be part of the precast if you want to beThe only way a stalker is going to kill me with BB is if I lag or i'm striped and don't bother to pot it.

Dagger stalkers are a wannabe LK in breaktime/Bowling bash damage. Might as well be Dex so you CAN strip well, and afford the extra Vit/Int.
qftw

[saitorashi]

I agree with him in the fact that there are many, many people on chaos that get coated now (at least, the priority people do). @ Lane, I think what he was trying to say was that if you can not strip someone, there isn't much you can do with your stalker. And for dagger stalkers, you could just help break the emp if the situation dictates it, or try to put out some damage.

It really doesn't have anything to do with trying to be like an LK in break time or Bowling Bash damage. It's merely just the alternative in the "what if" situations. Though, you are correct that Dex stalkers can get more vit, and have higher chance of stripping.

So we split them and show the pros and cons. For the purposes of this arguement, let's negate Gym Passes, because everyone has access to them, so it really doesn't matter.

Bow Stalker

+ Pros
Has better access to vit and other stats.
Has a slightly higher strip chance from higher dex
If the stalker has 130 dex, can sub as a half wizard for seige
Higher hit rate, for those pesky high flee Assassin Crosses, if you want to hit them with a sword or mailbreaker.
Cast time for stealth is relatively negligible.

-Cons
Can not really do anything to the emp.
Has to pretty much equip a bow to do any sort of physical damage (magical damage shouldn't be a problem though with high enough int).
Carrying capacity is significantly lower than the Str based stalkers.
Carrying capacity is not just limited to pots either. Extra equipment to switch to for different situations can be a really decisive factor in staying alive.


Dagger Stalker

+Pros
Higher Str enables larger weight capacity than the low str stalkers, which means more pots and more equips to carry.
Has the ability to break emps.
Can attack enemies with Bowling Bash if nothing else helps.
Damage with Bowling Bash is decent, and though not spectacular.

-Cons

Lower dex means longer stealth cast time.
Lower dex also means slightly lower chance of stripping.
Having high str means that you have less flexibility with stats, which may potentially mean less vit, int, or agi.


This is all I can think of at the moment. If you guys want to add anything else, go for it.

EDIT: Forgot to add something. When striping and doing damage is no good, just Close Confine for your guild to kill. It will not always work, but I always use it.

[Nails]

No.You're bad at this game.

Dagger stalkers are a wannabe LK in breaktime/Bowling bash damage. Might as well be Dex so you CAN strip well, and afford the extra Vit/Int.

depends what you do, since you're the judge of all skill in RO and all, i guess we should just do what you say. Btw, most stalker should copy FK via la swifthand, that looks quite fun :gg: Either build works for that...just outside of FK and Strip...ye've not much to do if u go bow

[Yansibar]

Really what it all comes down to is preference. Both variations have their own advantages and disadvantages, the only real deciding factor is what you want to do with it. I for one really prefer the large weight limit I can get. You say bow stalkers can just get gym passes? I can get those plus the added weight from the str I have. I can carry so much gear to woe its not even funny.

[Pantsu]

So how can a dex stalker both have more vit and be part of the precast? I don't know of one caster stalker than has more vit than my str stalker. And if they did, either their magic damage would suck beyond belief or they would have really shitty dex.

And who cares about how much int and sp you have? If you use the argument that you can carry so many ranked slims per rush without factoring in cost then why can't you carry blues? My stalker has 12 base int because I was planningon getting around 30ish. If I were able to reset it, I would go 1 int. If I need the sp I'll just use all the blues I need since I'll have 2500 more weight limit.

And I still think that increased strip chance is so negligible. If you wear 120/130 dex to siege you'll have an 8%/10% (1 in 12.5/1 in 10) higher chance to strip on people with less or equal dex of my stalker (80 dex). The increased rate drops as people's dex is above mine since I'll still just have 15% on them anyway. Not to mention there are alot of classes that have at least 120 dex in siege anyway, and we'd have the same rate on stripping them. As long as you are near a strings (which you will probably be in most situations) who cares if you have to attempt it a few more times.

And stalkers aren't really that far off of a LK on break time. Any good guild is going to dec agi/dispell an LK on the emp. Without frenzy/thq how fast can an LK break an emp? I'd wager it wouldn't be faster than if my stalker got dispelled/dec agi'ed on an emp.

I've said it before and so have others. Each build has its own advantages and it depends on your preference what you want to do. To me, the advantages of a dex stalker aren't as appealing as a str stalker. These retards who say people are bad at the game because they don't have the same opinions need to realize that. Also, how many of you have actually played both types of stalkers in WoE?

Edit: Also to the majority of dex stalkers without any agi. Have fun in Bio3 with sd/clashing spiral. Getting sd'ed for 400 damage is nice.

[Lane]

The dex does make a difference in stripping the only people stating it doesnt are people with low dex, trying to compensate. Also chase walk time with low dex is noticable, I lol everytime I see it. If you want to get away or at least get the cast off - you need high dex. The skill is almost un-usable in WoE Without high dex.

Seriously, High str stalkers are wanna-be LK's. But not as good.
Make a LK for BBing, Breaking, and tanking - and being all around beefy.
Make a Stalker to be stealthy, and Strip.

Also, Clashing/SD really doesnt hurt my stalker in bios much at all lol.

[saitorashi]

Also, how many of you have actually played both types of stalkers in WoE?

If I am a Bow/Dagger Hybrid stalker, does it count that I have seiged on both types?

[Shizuka_]

I dunno, I guess I'd rather have a Bow Rogue than a Dagger Rogue in WoE.

[rene]

And I still think that increased strip chance is so negligible. If you wear 120/130 dex to siege you'll have an 8%/10% (1 in 12.5/1 in 10) higher chance to strip on people with less or equal dex of my stalker (80 dex).

If you have a 15% chance of stripping someone and I have a 25%, I have a 66% better chance of stripping the person over you do. Not 10%.

The increased rate drops as people's dex is above mine since I'll still just have 15% on them anyway. Not to mention there are alot of classes that have at least 120 dex in siege anyway, and we'd have the same rate on stripping them. As long as you are near a strings (which you will probably be in most situations) who cares if you have to attempt it a few more times.This works in an imaginary situation where there is only one person to strip, but really, you're expected to strip a person and move onto the next right away.

[Pantsu]

66% better chance than me yes, it's a 10% increase in the actual formula. My mind is quite sloppy right now. But, the difference of 1/4 to 1/6.67 is not a huge if you have unlimited sp items and the skill has no cast time and no delay (in strings). I'm not saying there is no difference, but the extra amount of time taken to strip said person before going onto the next hardly makes a difference.

And in situations where there is a whole cluster around me, I generally just magbreak with stun/curse/mailbreaker to stop cast. Most of those people will die without being stripped. The ones that do survive I then strip.

And, Iris must be the place of godly WoE's because I can almost always get away from people and get a stealth off. Chaos must really blow ass. I just wish my hwiz could SG as fast as my stalker could cast stealth. I'd get alot more SG's off in siege.

[Swifthand]

Breakers should be coated.
This is an example of a huge gap between ideal and reality, the should and could.
For the most part I rarely run into people with coats. There are specific people I know are more likely to have them, and often do, but the majority of "breakers", I find, do not.

Personally I think that using magic on a stalker, unless its for tech purposes such as blaze shield, is pretty much pointless. As such your only damage output is going to be something like BB. Bow BB is not only risky (no shield), it really provides less damage than Dagger BB can achieve (i.e. 120 DEX and no/low STR versus 140 STR and 40-70 DEX).

The added VIT is the main benefit I see from Bow, but your main "I need VIT so I can fuck up the precast" aspect is going to be doing something like BB... you know... damage. And Dagger is better at that.

I think the mentality around MagBreak is unfortunate. Anyone can do it. It's nothing special. An AGI/VIT alchemist who AFK-leveled in Orc Dungeon is potentially better at that than either of these stalker builds will be. Hell, a Super Novice with status weps can status magnum break. How god damn special is that, then? BB is where you can actually make a distinct impact on the battle by actually taking out groups of people with damage.

If your guild has no one who MagBreaks for status/armor breaking and already melee damage dealers, you are filling that magbreak role, go for it, you're doing good! But for the most part, I'd say BB damage is very useful and overall STR does a better job of this.

[Sho Lin]

Can not really do anything to the emp.
You're not suppose to be hitting the emp, you're suppose to strip and support your guild.


Has to pretty much equip a bow to do any sort of physical damage (magical damage shouldn't be a problem though with high enough int).
If you BB in woe with str or dex /wrists now


Carrying capacity is significantly lower than the Str based stalkers.
Carrying capacity is not just limited to pots either. Extra equipment to switch to for different situations can be a really decisive factor in staying alive.
The beauty of gym passes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So how can a dex stalker both have more vit and be part of the precast?
Heard of lov? You need need some int so it'll hit.


And who cares about how much int and sp you have? If you use the argument that you can carry so many ranked
slims per rush without factoring in cost then why can't you carry blues? My stalker has 12 base int because I was
planningon getting around 30ish. If I were able to reset it, I would go 1 int. If I need the sp I'll just use all
the blues I need since I'll have 2500 more weight limit.
Using less blues is always a plus.


And I still think that increased strip chance is so negligible. If you wear 120/130 dex to siege you'll have
an 8%/10% (1 in 12.5/1 in 10) higher chance to strip on people with less or equal dex of my stalker (80 dex). The
increased rate drops as people's dex is above mine since I'll still just have 15% on them anyway. Not to mention
there are alot of classes that have at least 120 dex in siege anyway, and we'd have the same rate on stripping
them. As long as you are near a strings (which you will probably be in most situations) who cares if you have to
attempt it a few more times.
The extra chance is a bonus.


And stalkers aren't really that far off of a LK on break time. Any good guild is going to dec agi/dispell an
LK on the emp. Without frenzy/thq how fast can an LK break an emp? I'd wager it wouldn't be faster than if my
stalker got dispelled/dec agi'ed on an emp.
Who's retarded enough to 2hq on an emp. You get AAR and pick the emp. You're not always agi down or dispelled.




Average Battle Duration 18.22s that's agi downed frenzied
Average Battle Duration 9.8s AAR frenzied
Dispelled About the same


I've said it before and so have others. Each build has its own advantages and it depends on your preference
what you want to do. To me, the advantages of a dex stalker aren't as appealing as a str stalker. These retards who
say people are bad at the game because they don't have the same opinions need to realize that. Also, how many of
you have actually played both types of stalkers in WoE?
Using a str stalker is like using a rogue that has full strip and preserve. When I have a trans I want to base my
build off the skills that are given to me.


Edit: Also to the majority of dex stalkers without any agi. Have fun in Bio3 with sd/clashing spiral.
Getting sd'ed for 400 damage is nice.
You can always play the snatch role. How much agi would you get on a stalker you need 261 flee to dodge it. My sinX
barely gets that with mocking.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I said should, I get extremely ticked when I ask for a coat then die on the emp because of strip. If it's me vs a stalker on the emp and I want to break I'll edp fist it. He won't kill me with BB when I can out heal it in 1 ranked pot. By pre cast i mean use lov. This whole I can strip someone when it's 1v1 on an emp is retarded. The sinX will just punch the emp as i stated before. Or just suprise SB to the teeth. The only bonus that is arguable is damage on the emp and that's not even that worth it.


And no bowling bash on a stalker is not decent. It blows, at most you'll do 2k to a striped target. A striped target is useless let someone else kill him.

[Bato]

The beauty of gym passes.



Not everyone has access to a kafra shop.
Do you even own or have played a stalker in siege on a regular basis?

[Swifthand]

And no bowling bash on a stalker is not decent. It blows, at most you'll do 2k to a striped target. A striped target is useless let someone else kill him.
Because all that matters is how much damage a single hit does, right? No account for how quickly you can use it again and make that 2k into 4k into 6k, etc. Wouldn't that be a factor in usefulness? And if this is WoE, where is the consideration for people other than you doing damage?

Your definition of "it blows" is doing a spammable 2k area damage? As opposed to doing what? SGing for 2k damage after a cast time and having to wait for a delay? Hitlocking them all with LoV or Blaze Shield doesn't seem on par with doing 2k damage multiplied by the number of people people. By this "2k blows" standard, a wizard's SG "blows" because it is rarely doing 1k-per-hit to any person at any time, unless they're a 133+ INT HWiz using an Amped SG10.



Now I agree that you're not going to walk up to any one single person and start BBing and expect them to die. If they did, they weren't skilled enough to have mattered and would have died just as easily to someone else. This is entirely true.

But consider, a guild has just Recalled, or... an enemy group is somehow clumped up (I don't know, a precast or something of that nature) and you get in there and start laying it on them, 2k damage, then 2k more, then 2k more.

Why does that matter? Consider that you're in a large fight and your guild was already getting SGs off over them, etc, but it was not getting them killed and they were potting through it, but your 4k damage from 2 quick BBs-to-the-face is the damage that pushed their healthbar over the edge and sent a good 3, 4 or more people back to town.



So basically, please clarify why a spammable 2k area damage skill blows, and what else you would rather do against a clump of enemies.

[Sho Lin]

I don't have one but i have used one.

The point is to strip one then move on. I laugh at the stalkers that strip one then start BB'ing and let 5 or more get by un striped. Say you striped 3 people, what are you going to do? Hey you three, stand side by side. Strip as many as you can. If you're bowling bashing while you can strip others you just.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/kunn/RODRAMA/11814.jpg

Lov is nice when you're behind a million traps and aren't going to attack that war. They're striped and crippled let someone else kill them when you can cripple anouther. You get 2k off if they are striped you're lucky to to around 1k when they are geared.

I have no idea why I'm arguing this, most agree dex is better.

[Swifthand]

First off, just noticed you're making the jump away from Sakray.
I wish you the best of luck with that, sir!

Bowling Bash... blows or not?I laugh at the stalkers that strip one then start BB'ing and let 5 or more get by un striped.
That has more to do with the stupidity of the individual than BB not doing sufficient damage, so you've not answered my question and I still don't see why you think spammable splash damage blows. I'm just curious, was this specific stupidity you witnessed under a precast or just in open fighting somewhere in the castle?

I also think 140 STR BBs would do more than 1k damage to an unstripped person. In fact I can almost guarantee this with some rough math in my head <_<... and to type it out for you...

- Damage:
1. ~150 ATK from a nice +7/8 Gladius.
2. 140 ATK from 140 STR.
3. ~160 ATK from STR- and DEX-based ATK Bonuses.
4. +5 ATK and +61% from 2x Hydra, 1x Skel Worker.
5. That's 733 Damage per attack and BB does 1000%: 7330.

- Reductions:
1. -40% WoE skill redux: 4398
2. -40% Average DEF*: 2639
3. -40% Cranial+Beret: 1583

Take off that Gear and you're left with 4.3k per BB. Seems a little high?
No, that's just 140 STR against a naked person.


The Role of a Stalker

So you're viewing Stalker as a strip-only machine rather than a class that can strip most of the time and then situationally Bowling Bash for great damage when necessary?


Magic Hitlocking

Personally I love LoV. Used it for a while on my Stalker. Blaze Shield as well. It's freaking awesome to be able to simultaneously trap people under a precast with Blaze Shield and Strip them while they're stuck. But let's say you're the 2nd Stalker in your guild and Stalker No1 is covering that hitlock already. What skill do you take?

You're both stripping like mad but then 2 entire guilds come in and there are 40 people stacked on the spawn cell. Are you going to try and divest all 40 or wouldn't it be great to bust out 60k damage by doing 1.5k to each of them? And to each of those who your buddy has stripped, they're now taking 4ks ^_~
And seconds later your 1.5k becomes 3k, and most of those people are probably dead because that's on top of the damage with a precast.

-- footnotes:

*I say ~40 DEF because many people now use lower +ed Valk Gear rather than having the old +7/8/9 Chainmails, Mants, etc. Berets are upgradable but most probably have them in the +4-7 range still. And finally if you do have a handful of 70 DEF Tanks coming your way, you can kill everyone else in that cluster first and strip them individually afterwards, or BB with a Pick. Choose one, either works.

[Anutsu]

I play a recaller on euRO and I'd never trade my STR stalker for a DEX one. We don't have Kafra Shop on euRO, and as long I can handle having a 0.2sec longer stealth cast time (got 90 DEX with buffs), I can't lose the time to come back to the storage every 10 minutes (I constantly carry hundreds of slims, blues, seeds, waters, speed pots, add to that valk armors and sleips). Not saying that more DEX wouldn't help but casting faster has never really been a big issue to me, at least not as much as low STR would have been.
For non recallers, it's also a matter of preferences but it's always funny to see people using completely unrelated examples to criticize a build, such as "BB sucks bcuz I've seen ppl trying to kill someone with BB after stripping him". Like Swifthand said, it has nothing to do with the skill itself but the guy who's playing the char.
Who said BB was the ultimate one shooting skill? Sometimes, people talk about WoE as if it was a PvP room with 10 people. "lol ur not gonna kill anyone with ur BB". Have you ever seen someone dying to a single SG in WoE? Yet, wizards use it in WoE. Because, as grandiose as it might sound, damage adds up. If a stalker happens to have double ATK (which is not really hard to get when you're in a BC party) and BB preserved, don't tell me he should try to strip if there's 50 people packed on 5 cells in front of him. That doesn't mean you shouldn't focus on stripping people but under special circumstances, BB can be as helpful as strip, if not more.

[saitorashi]

Situationally, Swifthand, I BB pretty much when there are 3 or 4 enemies near each other, and one of them is a wizard. My BB has killed wizards before, and made the others in the surrounding area take a few hits and pot.

I don't think I have ever been in a situation where an entire 40-person guild was huddled close enough for me to hit them all. The best I've seen was the pre-emp stacking that most guilds do before a rush. In a situtation like that, why the hell would I try to strip someone if there's so many of them? Like I said, this is purely situational. So in this situation, I would just Bowling Bash maniacally, and hopefully some guildmates are out there to be a distraction (yes, I have been in that situation plenty of times). I oftentimes drop one of the enemy guild's wizard, which is significant to successful defense.

Oh, and to add on to Swifthand's arguement, that 1.5 - 2k BB is probably some of the best damage in seige compared to what other damage classes can provide. I'm not saying it's the best, but let's compare.

SD sinx usually do about 1-3 SD, and it has almost a 3 second delay.
EDP Sinx can do about 3k-8k EDP sonic Blow, but it takes a catalyst (though for some it isn't a problem).

Snipers do like 300 - 500 DS, though pretty spammable, so it racks up.
FA snipers do like 1k-2k Falcon Assaults, though no sniper should be even using this skill.

Minstrels and Gypsies do about 1k - 2k Arrow Vulcan, and it has a 3 second animation based delay. (And I also think Gypsies in general should never do arrow vulcan, when they can always dazzler).

Lord Knight's Spiral Pierce (and as far as I reckon, it's still highly used in Chaos; I don't know why) does like 1k-2k, and it has a 2 second delay.
Also, a Lord Knight's Bowling Bash does about 1k-3k easily.

I know I have not included a bunch of other classes, but this post could go on forever. The point is, whether its damage "blows" in your perspective or not, damage is damage, and it racks up, especially if your stalker has high ASPD, making the BB something that can not just be overlooked. And note that BB hits multiple enemies.


@Sho Lin
Like I said in the prior post, Gym Passes are negatable (in arguement I mean), because anyone can get them (if they pay for them).

Winding away from the main point of this post, I say that no one in this topic really has a right to tell any of the other stalker players how to play their stalker. They are the most versatile class, and there are many options to take, especially in seige.

[saitorashi]

I play a recaller on euRO and I'd never trade my STR stalker for a DEX one. We don't have Kafra Shop on euRO, and as long I can handle having a 0.2sec longer stealth cast time (got 90 DEX with buffs), I can't lose the time to come back to the storage every 10 minutes (I constantly carry hundreds of slims, blues, seeds, waters, speed pots, add to that valk armors and sleips). Not saying that more DEX wouldn't help but casting faster has never really been a big issue to me, at least not as much as low STR would have been.
For non recallers, it's also a matter of preferences but it's always funny to see people using completely unrelated examples to criticize a build, such as "BB sucks bcuz I've seen ppl trying to kill someone with BB after stripping him". Like Swifthand said, it has nothing to do with the skill itself but the guy who's playing the char.
Who said BB was the ultimate one shooting skill? Sometimes, people talk about WoE as if it was a PvP room with 10 people. "lol ur not gonna kill anyone with ur BB". Have you ever seen someone dying to a single SG in WoE? Yet, wizards use it in WoE. Because, as grandiose as it might sound, damage adds up. If a stalker happens to have double ATK (which is not really hard to get when you're in a BC party) and BB preserved, don't tell me he should try to strip if there's 50 people packed on 5 cells in front of him. That doesn't mean you shouldn't focus on stripping people but under special circumstances, BB can be as helpful as strip, if not more.

Darn, you pretty much got my point across quicker. =(

Anyway, I highlighted the bold to support this line by adding that BBing isn't also always about just raw damage. If you played your stalker wisely, you could also use status weapons and main/swordbreakers.

Now if it were up to me, and I think swifthand may agree with this, I would just put on a mailbreaker and spam BB over stripping (Because I have never seen Swifthand use Full Strip EVER!).

[Pantsu]

You're not suppose to be hitting the emp, you're suppose to strip and support your guild.



If you BB in woe with str or dex /wrists now



The beauty of gym passes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Heard of lov? You need need some int so it'll hit.



Using less blues is always a plus.



The extra chance is a bonus.



Who's retarded enough to 2hq on an emp. You get AAR and pick the emp. You're not always agi down or dispelled.




Average Battle Duration 18.22s that's agi downed frenzied
Average Battle Duration 9.8s AAR frenzied
Dispelled About the same



Using a str stalker is like using a rogue that has full strip and preserve. When I have a trans I want to base my
build off the skills that are given to me.



You can always play the snatch role. How much agi would you get on a stalker you need 261 flee to dodge it. My sinX
barely gets that with mocking.


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I said should, I get extremely ticked when I ask for a coat then die on the emp because of strip. If it's me vs a stalker on the emp and I want to break I'll edp fist it. He won't kill me with BB when I can out heal it in 1 ranked pot. By pre cast i mean use lov. This whole I can strip someone when it's 1v1 on an emp is retarded. The sinX will just punch the emp as i stated before. Or just suprise SB to the teeth. The only bonus that is arguable is damage on the emp and that's not even that worth it.


And no bowling bash on a stalker is not decent. It blows, at most you'll do 2k to a striped target. A striped target is useless let someone else kill him.

Any wizard with halfway decent dex can sg/lov simultaneously in a precast. If you're sitting in the back precasting, you won't be up front stripping people every second like everyone here thinks they should!

I can afford to use all these blues because I have the weight to carry fat whites instead of slims! I already said people weren't taking into account the fact that ranked slims are expensive to burn through. So, if they can do that, why can't I just burn through as many blues as I want?

So you take aar into consideration for LK's, but not stalkers. HEAVEN FORBID A BLACKSMITH AND A STALKER IN THE SAME PARTY! And yes, any guild with any coordination at all will dec agi/dispell a lk on the emp. Even with buffs (which s/he wouldn't have from dispell) whacking an emp on an LK with an ice pick would take about 45 seconds. That's over 10 seconds slower than my stalker breaking an emp with buffs. My shitty stalker that doesn't even have 90 base strength. I'm pretty sure if both were dispelled and decreased agi on the emp that I'd still have the faster break time. So unless this lk has a gtb, for all intensive purposes I would break the emp faster.

And yes, stalkers are rogues with stealth, full strip, and preserve. We didn't get some new skill that made the class all that different from what it was. If you think getting more dex is what the class was built for, go ahead. Just don't think getting str doesn't have advantages.

Have fun edp fisting the emp and having a break time of over a minute? Blazing fast.

As for the flee, my stalker gets about 250 flee with a mocking on. That's with 60 base agi. I could even get those flee ribbons if I wanted. Nowhere did I ever say I flee it 95%, but having 230 flee in Bio3 definitely is noticeable for fleeing various things.

[Swifthand]

I don't think I have ever been in a situation where an entire 40-person guild was huddled close enough for me to hit them all..
Alas, I admit I was exaggerating my point a bit by saying 40 :[
I was perhaps referring to an entire multi-guild alliance entering a precast after getting an ME down or some such. It is situational to find 4+ people stacked, but as you said, those situations do happen fairly often!

(Because I have never seen Swifthand use Full Strip EVER!).
That's because I'm god damn lazy -_-;;

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9994/holyshitgoddamnimlazyri0.jpg

But I swear it's coming soon @_@
Like... during this next exp event starting Tuesday. Yeah. After my 3 exams and 2 projects >_O...

[Cute Wittle Corgi]

int/dex here

I had my max dex at 7x as that was my main killing stat so I used BB

it was really gay but hey it was great to go from a 80 dex dagger rogue to a 124 dex (at that time) so the cast time was basically non-existant.

at about mid 8x's I was starting to use sg and with the dex I had maxed, I would be back-up wizard. I knew I couldn't kill anyone unless they already were at low HP or they didn't stack on the mdef. I was mainly there to distract and interviene and make whoever I was messing with waste their time so that the main defense had a little more time to set up

my current 9x' - 98 I am mainly on flying kick duty since I have my final stats just about (if/when I hit 99 I may just get another point of int and dex and put the rest into str if I do have any left) and I'm having alot more fun with FK since I use "the secret weapon") and thats alot more annoying than strings powered FS and sg, to me anyways

I don't really use BB anymore because I want to be the one person who delt the killing blow instead of saying "Yeah I had people help" oh yeah and uh to be helpful BB is kinda "meh" with that whole woe reduction/other damage lowering thing

SEACREST OUT~

[WK]

I've reset my STR based stalker to 1/1. Shaun would've too if he didn't quit. Nuff said.

Maybe ep12 will help dagger based stalkers a bit, but getting those cards will not be an easy task.

[snowstorm]

I said should, I get extremely ticked when I ask for a coat then die on the emp because of strip. If it's me vs a stalker on the emp and I want to break I'll edp fist it. He won't kill me with BB when I can out heal it in 1 ranked pot. By pre cast i mean use lov. This whole I can strip someone when it's 1v1 on an emp is retarded. The sinX will just punch the emp as i stated before.



or wear your ice pick in the offhand and dont worry about strip

[OrderDisorder]

...

I don't think I have ever been in a situation where an entire 40-person guild was huddled close enough for me to hit them all. The best I've seen was the pre-emp stacking that most guilds do before a rush. In a situtation like that, why the hell would I try to strip someone if there's so many of them?

...

You don't just strip anyone, but people that matter, or rely on their armor to function, this would be guild leaders, sinx's, lk's, and in some cases MS's due to equipment breaking. What good would it do anyone to strip some random person when you could be preventing your emp from getting broken so easily?

[Swifthand]

You don't just strip anyone, but people that matter, or rely on their armor to function, this would be guild leaders, sinx's, lk's, and in some cases MS's due to equipment breaking. What good would it do anyone to strip some random person when you could be preventing your emp from getting broken so easily?

Well, in that case you're relying that you can actually target those who matter among the huge crowd to begin with. BBing 2-3 times to help thin them out, then targeting the survivors is a good way to figure out who is strong enough to matter ^_~

[OrderDisorder]

Any sinx or LK is important to me to want/need to strip them, because of their quick break time, and considering these classes head straight for the emp it won't be hard for me to depict where they are headed, now understand I am talking about the enemy sinx's and lk's running into our emp, otherwise why would I care? Sure BB is nice on Wiz lines, but I would rarely choose to use it over flying kick, or good aoe skills (SG, MS, LoV etc.)

[Swifthand]

these classes head straight for the emp it won't be hard for me to depict where they are headedI believe we have a difference in positioning here. I'm considering a Stalker standing in the thick of things near the portal, BBing a few times, then following whoever survives and stripping them before they get to Emp. Sounds like you're suggesting you wait for them behind the precast and intercept halfway. Just a difference of opinion on how much you'd like to do I suppose :x


Otherwise why would I care?Because killing anything and everything as it comes in is better than waiting for some to slip through and dealing with them when they're already past the precast.


Good AoE SkillsSure BB is nice on Wiz lines, but I would rarely choose to use it over flying kick, or good aoe skills (SG, MS, LoV etc.)but I would rarely choose to use it over flying kick, or good aoe skills (SG, MS, LoV etc.)good aoe skills (SG, MS, LoV etc.)good aoe skillsBB is a good AoE skill for Dagger Stalkers. That's what the entire last page has been about.

If you're a cast Stalker you wouldn't want to be your precast's SG. You'd be potentially overlapping a High Wizard's Amp SG and basically gimping your guild's defense ._.
MS, maybe. LoV, definitely good, but SG? Only on offense.

[saitorashi]

You don't just strip anyone, but people that matter, or rely on their armor to function, this would be guild leaders, sinx's, lk's, and in some cases MS's due to equipment breaking. What good would it do anyone to strip some random person when you could be preventing your emp from getting broken so easily?
I think you missed the hypothetical situation;The best I've seen was the pre-emp stacking that most guilds do before a rush. In a situtation like that, why the hell would I try to strip someone if there's so many of them?



An entire 40-person guild is huddled up together, what should I do FIRST? Strip important targets? Nah, there's too many people close to each other. Bowling Bash to disorient them a bit? With a status weapon or breaker? Yes.

Make sure to read every detail for a better understanding.

[rene]

RE: Pre-Emp Stacking

Stripping important people, even if it's just one person (read: guild leaders) is probably more useful than managing to kill a couple of wizards. These are the same people who probably never would have had an impact on the rush anyway. BB also sucks for inflicting statuses due to the flakiness of the skill overall.

I don't understand why anyone would want BB over FK for siege.

[Sho Lin]

As stated before you can have a pick on your off hand, I still consider it punching the emp. Last time I checked you don't have to stack all of your aoe skills in one spot. I'm not talking about a caster stalker, you only need a small amount of int to hit everything with lov. It's an idea if you can't get flying kick for some reason. Soon as you start to bowling bash you let your guard down. I've walked past a ton of stalkers doing that.

Most stalkers do around 1k, mainly less, to my sinX geared. Give or take around 2k if i'm striped. What's a joke is if I make a wiz you'll do even less to it or just SW.

I don't like sitting at the front, people like to use 1hko skills on me all the time.

It's selective stripping as everyone says. lol I'm stripping a wiz!

Flying kick > bowling bash end of story. I'd rather take linker buffs away than BB for next to no damage.

[OrderDisorder]

Because killing anything and everything as it comes in is better than waiting for some to slip through and dealing with them when they're already past the precast.

I'm not saying that I can't rely on my guild to kill people before they get past the precast, I'm just saying I'd rather be ready to be able to stop them IF it happens, there is a wiz line, LK's and other melee classes that will kill people, why would I want to BB people around if I could just FK then divest, making them easier to kill for stronger killing classes.


Good AoE Skills

BB is a good AoE skill for Dagger Stalkers. That's what the entire last page has been about.

I'm not dagger, and if your only referring to dagger stalkers being good with BB, theres no point in arguing with me about that.

If you're a cast Stalker you wouldn't want to be your precast's SG. You'd be potentially overlapping a High Wizard's Amp SG and basically gimping your guild's defense ._.
MS, maybe. LoV, definitely good, but SG? Only on offense.

I'm not saying I'd SG while precasting, hell your right I don't even know why I wrote SG in there at all, thanks for that catch. LoV is a much better choice.

[not fat bard]

Um Int/Dex stalkers are pretty fun, getting instant cast without battle chant, along with some foods, gym passes, link, GTB, Orc Hero, and Mind Break, you can pretty much have alot of fun, Although stalker magic is pretty weak, I often laugh when I kill terribles with stalker-SG/firstwind in WoE.

[devo1]

GTB, Orc Hero, Mindbreak

[not fat bard]

Those things are common on Loki. :o

[Redline]

My opinion on Stalkers

I think Bow Stalker is best for WoE for the reason of high dex and full strip. My Stalker has very high int (85 base.. I use bazerald in WoE), and I use this int to my advantage by using the ninja skill exploding dragon. If I hit people that I recently full stripped with exploding dragon (most of the time I always stalk/ stealth into strings) I just see people pot like mad :P . I have tested exploding dragon on people in pvp full stripped... it does a decent 2700-5000 dmg :D ( this is just a rough estimate as people could be wearing a ragamuffin mant and rosary's, crystal pumps, but how often would you see that combo?). I should make a video of me using exploding dragon xD.

[Zearth]

kRO looks more hardcore than us. Fulltime FCP, thus Stalkers are a dead class there. lol.