Zeitgeist

[Chidori]

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

If anyone's already seen it, feel free to discuss. I find it hard to disbelieve anything in here at all, though it's not the first time I've read into anything of the like.

[Axxess]

99% of this forum wouldn't understand anything said in this movie.

there is no interbutts involved.

[Swifthand]

[FYI: I sat down to write a sentence or two, but ended up going on and on. There is no well-formed argument here except that I don't think this movie will ever properly represent a functional worldview any more than a wholly religious one will... but I only saw 20 minutes of it due to some time constraints at oh... 4am when I have a class at 8 that takes an hour to drive to...]

[Second Disclaimer: I approached this topic a bit more on the side of Religion than I normally do. For the most part I agree that its full of shit. I'm just trying to keep the people who want to be discerning about things from falling into the same pattern of actions (accusing without full understanding) that they so despise in people of faith.
For the most part, religion sucks monkey balls. Sweaty monkey balls. However I'm playing devils advocate with regards to this movie... or I guess... God's Advocate? Nah. He sucks monkey balls too.]

I was challenged to a debate by a 9/11 conspiracy theorist a few weeks back and since, at the time, I'd hardly even looked into the subject. I didn't have time to watch all of it and while I'm a misanthropic atheist who doesn't support the troops, I also found the movie to be lacking in a well-rounded perspective. I couldn't stand watching it anymore after about 20 minutes. Not because I disagreed with, say, the anti-religious sentiment. Hell I'm all for that sort of thing, but the method they go about addressing it is on the level with saying Affirmative Action is a fair solution to past racial wrongs when, for example, AA does not help Asians without giving any reason not to.

That said, I didn't get far enough to have any idea what it had to do with 9/11 conspiracy theories, but I still owned the rhetorical pants off the guy who challenged me to a debate.

I can't blame them for approaching their topics as they did. You need an extremist on the other end of things to make people realize that both sides are fucking crazy and that moderation is probably the most functional route in the end.

What I liked/supported from the first 20 minutes: Christianity is not horribly unique, but an amalgamation of various mystic traditions coming from pretty much everywhere and anywhere. Not enough people bother learning about the historical context of their own religion (I used to be Catholic). Hell, before I decided to abandon the religion I was born into, I read two versions of the Bible, when I was 8 and 9. Come to find out there are 40 year olds who claim to believe every word in the bible, literally (not even as metaphor), and haven't even read it the whole way through.

A concrete example of what got on my nerves: "A man, living in the sky... who watches every thing you do."
Now, for practical purposes, way too many people actually subscribe to that idea. Too may local preachers, entire congregations and general ignoramuses actually think the bible describes a place of clouds for good people and a place of fire for evil people. However, it's (mostly) agreed that the popular conceptions of Heaven and Hell have little to do with the original ideas put forth regarding Christian Salvation and Damnation.

If you actually speak with any serious theologists, you'd know that the "Man in the sky" thing is generally regarded as, yes, pretty much bullshit. It's like the Pre-K version of theology. Put any serious time into reading any religion's actual message and not it's specific quirks and you quickly realize just how petty that kind of view is, from either the side of believers or nonbelievers.
And I said any religion, yes, this could get me in trouble, but I've found material of literary and intellectual worth in Christianity, Islam and Buddhism when I've looked into the three... and managed to pull that knowledge without actually buying into the whole of the religion.

I'm not Richard Dawkins on this. I don't think Religion is a "bad meme" and some sort of parasite on society. I think that, for the most part, people are too unconcerned with the greater affairs of things to bother questioning the structure of the world they live in and what portions of morality forms a functional society and what portions impede that. For those people, they pretty much need someone to tell them to sit here, move there, don't do this, you'll go to hell, or else they'd go nucking futs.

Religion, in some ways, holds a functional place in society. Some aspects of it, however, are long overdue to be revised or eradicated. Especially playing on the whole in-group/out-group dynamics with every breath they take. But that's another issue... kind of.

--

Most of my opinion, however, is rooted in my misanthropic and elitist worldview. I won't be bothered if everyone eventually has an intellectual revelation to the point where they'll finally question religion among other things. I hope it would happen, but I'm not going to hold my breath for it.

To put it bluntly, as I told the 9/11 Conspiracy Theorist Guy:
"I'll grant you that there's probably a shady group of people guiding world politics in one way or another. The question is where does their direct control over our lives begin or end and if it will ever be brought to a close?
If I were to stumble upon a secret organization that was running the world, I would take a vastly different approach to it than the one you're putting forth here. I wouldn't run around screaming 'THE TRUTH SHALL BE REVEALED!!'
Hardly, I'd turn to them and say: 'Gentlemen, I admire your designs.' and then proceed to get involved as best I could. I'm sure they could use a dedicated young guy such as myself.
In the end, it's better to be partly in control of the world and know you run your own life than spend your life telling people about how you don't have any control over your life and neither do they and we should all go emo on the whole of society about it. "

[If you actually read this whole post, I'm sorry.]

[Maybe I'll get around to seeing the whole movie and type a full opinion, but given how much I wrote off just 20 minutes, I doubt anyone will care enough to read it or I will care enough to write it. Need to work on finding that organization so I can start ruling the world and what-have-you!]


Edit: I'd left the thing to load this whole time and apparently... uh... I stopped just before the 9/11 shit. Well goes to show, I guess. Bad timing on my part.
In any event, first problem I see is that "looks like an old demolition ."
The exact guy who said that has been complaining about how much of a mis-quote that is for the last 3 years. Maybe I'll pull up a link to the article where he renounces the idea for like the millionth time. But of course, the idea of the conspiracists is going to be that "Oh, the FCC put pressure on him to refute it."
Possible, but no one has evidence of that one either way, so might as well be talking to your cat.


[b]Edit 2: So this movie actually IS about the 9/11 conspiracy in the end. I just flipped to the Building 7 thing. I'll have to watch it, but man I've heard the spiel on building 7 a hundred times and I'm still not sold. Anyone whose taken a decent level Physics course or has any moderate interest in the subject (or any of a hundred different subfields of engineering) could tell these guys off in a heartbeat.

[Swifthand]

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

If anyone's already seen it, feel free to discuss. I find it hard to disbelieve anything in here at all, though it's not the first time I've read into anything of the like.
My advice to you would be to not believe what they're telling you just because it seems like a well-constructed counterpoint. They're going to be biased in their direction the same way that the government is biased in its own direction. Each side is wrong about a good number of things.

They're right, there is a war for your mind, but these guys are also part of it.

I see 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists like the Emo Kids who tried so hard to be "non-conformist" that they ended up all conforming to the same type of nonconformity. Kind of defeats the purpose.

I support their free thinking. I don't support their lack of the full perspective they claim to have.

[Chidori]

99% of this forum wouldn't understand anything said in this movie.

there is no interbutts involved.

Most people I've tried convincing to watch it or people who I've talked to about it can't even bring up a valid argument against what was said in the movie. Though, I don't believe it word for word, I find a lot of it more than coincidental.

[Hadas]

There is not, in the entire duration of the film, a single instance, even inkling, of anything that would resemble a rational thought process. It should be ignored.

[Swifthand]

can't even bring up a valid argument against what was said in the movie.
Give me some time, I don't put this high on my priority list but I'll get it done eventually.

[Chidori]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a firm believer of the 9/11 conspiracy theory. However, I've always been one of those who believes religion to be ironic in that it is the "evil" in this world. Though there are a ton of fishy, highly coincidental factors surrounding 9/11, it would never be a widely accepted theory due to the amount of trauma that comes with the event itself.

Religion is used by nearly every government as a tool. The middle east and south asia are great examples of this. Not only used as tools but a means to convey war with other nations. People kill themselves and others in the name of their gods and there are on-going wars worldwide that all center around religion. The fact that they're trying to prove that religion is purely based off astronomy (which I don't find hard to believe at all) just goes to show how much shit religion is full of.

There is not, in the entire duration of the film, a single instance, even inkling, of anything that would resemble a rational thought process. It should be ignored.

The film does not show opinions, but rather brings forward facts to prove points. I didn't really see any time in the film where opinions were being voiced aside from voice clips that they integrated into the theme of it all. I don't see how a "rational though process" (should this even have anything to do with rationality) is even related to the topics in the film.

[Hadas]

However, I've always been one of those who believes religion to be ironic in that it is the "evil" in this world.

And we've just gone from the realm of the rational to the realm of the irrational.

Why is religion the "evil" in this world?

Though there are a ton of fishy, highly coincidental factors surrounding 9/11, it would never be a widely accepted theory due to the amount of trauma that comes with the event itself.

What 'fishy, highly coincidental' factors? Take Occam's Razor to the case and the official story is the only one that really makes sense unless you are taking the government and a large number of people outside of it being in a secret conspiracy as a given.


Religion is used by nearly every government as a tool. The middle east and south asia are great examples of this. Not only used as tools but a means to convey war with other nations. People kill themselves and others in the name of their gods and there are on-going wars worldwide that all center around religion. The fact that they're trying to prove that religion is purely based off astronomy (which I don't find hard to believe at all) just goes to show how much shit religion is full of.

It's no different than being willing to die for a secular cause, such as freedom or egalitarianism. Are people who are willing to die for those causes also nonsensically stupid? They do after all irrationally believe in the cause in question.


The film does not show opinions, but rather brings forward facts to prove points. I didn't really see any time in the film where opinions were being voiced aside from voice clips that they integrated into the theme of it all. I don't see how a "rational though process" (should this even have anything to do with rationality) is even related to the topics in the film.

Many of the "facts" are of dubious validity and are historically suspect. I didn't re-watch the film (as I have seen it before), but I don't recall seeing any citations for the entire duration.

Even putting aside the dubious validity of the relevant facts, the argument fails miserably to show that any of the relevant facts are inherently related. A rational person would subject the relationship between two different facts to strict scrutiny rather than take as a given that they are connected in any way.

Just because they name, say, 5 facts in rapid succession does not mean that the facts are related. Just because the movie says it does not mean it is true; this is the problem with conspiracy theories in general.

Another note to keep in mind is that, while I generally detest ad hominem attacks, people who honestly believe in conspiracy theories are seldom reliable sources of information.

[luix]

I haven't watched the movie, but i can sure as hell point something out: There actually are people running the world. Those people are called THE RICHEST ASSHOLES IN THE WORLD WITH POLITICAL/RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGIES. They are not a underground group that gets together and decide the fate of the world... they just have the power of leverage.

And i've watched several short movies/movies/amateur movies/documentaries whatever, regarding 9/11. Each of them trying to prove either that there was a conspiracy or that middle eastern dudes are evil. Everyone of them was complete bullshit.

Religion is a good thing. Not being religious myself, i can see that many people calm themselves and live better lives following a religion. But its also dangerous, as has been proven by the Al Qaeda, by the Church with their burning of witches and heretics back in the day, the Crusades, and countless times by other confrontations of religious background. This shit is ridiculous. Why would your God order you to murder another human being? Dangerous stuff. Not evil... just dangerous. And beneficial. What the fuck? Religion can bring out the best and the worst in us.

And i stop there. Too much too say for this topic when i didn't even see the movie lol

[Swifthand]

Okay Mr. Tomdori-chan ~ I've been working on this in my head for a little while but haven't had the time to watch the movie in full and likely never will in one sitting (my schedule this year is busy as fuck).

However I managed to just dedicate a full hour to it, so about 75% through. I also skipped the first 20 mins that I already saw and a few of the "LOL ISN'T RELIGION FUNNIE?" jokelines, etc. Whosoever is that voice they have doing it reminds me of a Car Dealership commercial:
"MAN IF I TALK REALLY LOUD AND SAY IT ENTHUSIASTICALLY WITH A MIDWESTERN ACCENT YOU'LL BE MORE LIKELY TO BELIEVE ME AND COME TO TOYOTA TRUCKMONTH!!"

... *ahem* ... sorry about that.

I'll just be clear on what I'm responding to in Zeitgeist: three topics. Religion, the structures of power that be (both Economic and Political) and 9/11.


-- Religion --

The larger concept of Religion, as I said, I can't argue against. I'm all for ridding the world of some of its lunacy, as long as its done with some thought put into it rather than just taking a large cannon and blowing the concept of religion out of the water. Religion, as flawed as it is, is just like any other intellectual discourse: It can yield some useful insights to the human experience. Religion in ancient times attempted, in part, what Anthropologists do today. Thus, we take the positive concepts from Religion and do away with what remains (aka most of it).


-- Nine Eleven --
people who I've talked to about it can't even bring up a valid argument against what was said in the movie.
I hope this will count and you can no longer claim this movie hasn't been faulted in your presence. I'll just pull some easy specifics, the kind I don't have to break a sweat thinking about to turn to and say "... I see what you did there... but the scientific community as a whole frowns on your ideas."

Specifically, I'm going to discuss the Pentagon. I could have done the Building 7 section, because the case there is just as weak.
Just behind those two in irrationality is the claim that "[If what the report says is true] you'd expect then to see a whole stack of floors piled up on top of each other and then a spindle of core columns standing too."
In a world of perfect physics, where friction doesn’t cause added heat and sideways stresses and you have this nice, neat Newtonian package of the floors moving downward and the columns not receiving any force at all. Sure, then it'd make sense. However once you pass high school physics, you start to learn... oh... higher math. At that point you can actually model the real world and begin to barely grasp how complex and interconnected the chaotic system in a collapsing structure is.

This lack of attention to realistic physics is probably my main complaint with all aspects of these theories.
The second would be the lack of a realistic worldview and assuming people are smarter, more organized and get along better then they are/do.


-- Anyway ~ on with the show!! --


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... I don't know why I spent so much time on this.
But I swear next time there's some idiot spamming 9/11 truther crap in every board on 4chan I'm posting this in response. Gotta make good use of it somehow and an RO board sure the fuck isn't "good use".

... but then again, neither is 4chan.