Can Videogame stories be deep?

[Old Mandrill]

i honestly dont find that much depth in video game characters or plots
hey has anyone been catching up on pong lately? o fuck that story line is crazy

http://coin-op.tv/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/pong.jpg

FUCK YEAH


For someone who reads alot of books, this person sure knows how to judge a book by its cover.

A videogame is just a different medium which to portray an art. It's the same thickheaded comment you used to hear about comics "oh comics can't be deep, there are pictures!!" even further than comics, i'm sure people said the same thing about movies, and TV series. Why don't you just say "all american I know love hamburgers, all of the blackpeople i've met are athletic" Grouping an entire class and dismissing it(even if its based on your very limited experience) ... is really quite snobby, and elitest.

And no I am not saying videogames are better than literature, its still a growing concept as was comicbooks. Each class has its own strength, uniqueness, and value.

Thats what *I* think. What do you think?

[WK]

I think this topic should be in Tirades, to get the attention that it deserves.

[Bluedreams]

I will say that even though I might dislike a game's play style, I'll generally play it just to get the story. Games with a better story line get more attention from me then games where they skipped out on it.

A good example is Warcraft 3, didn't like the RTS style they decided on, but the story was pretty amazing, so I'd end up cheating just to get through some of the levels to see how the story progressed.

The HL series have good storylines too that get you drawn in and generally keep you guessing as to what is actually going on. HL1's story was mostly introduced on the tram ride, and you had to figure out the rest as you went. HL2 tries to be a bit more indepth with more stuff coming from NPC's.

[The Jesus]

Xenogears, deeper than Anna Nichole Smith's cooch(too soon?) but without the itch the next morning.

[George Zimmer]

Xenogears, deeper than Anna Nichole Smith's cooch(too soon?) but without the itch the next morning.
Asshole! Just when I thought I had heard the last of that tramp, you bring her up again! /ag

As for the question: Yes.

[Cubical]

Half life series

Tales of Symphonia

Metriod Prime

are a few i can think of off the top of my head

[Old Mandrill]

Phoenix Wright

Final Fantasy Tactics

Metalgear

off the top of my head.

[Yamaha]

I enjoy video game story lines but I hate the people who get TOO into it, like the people from gamefaqs.com.

[Old Mandrill]

I enjoy video game story lines but I hate the people who get TOO into it, like the people from gamefaqs.com.

Don't play Phoenix Wright or Mother 3, it'll make you cry.

[Rav]

man i thought you pming me was obsessive, ok im sorry but i really dont wanna shoot sand, you gotta lighten up a bit, at least take some breaks my fucking cock is sore as hell

part of me feels obligated to respond only because i dont want to offend people who do have half a brain, i.e. the other people who posted in your thread such as cubical. guys, i used to be a huge gamer, i love video games, had the biggest crush on link and i think that they are more enthralling than books (OH FUCK I READ BOOKS). the characters themselves really are cool, and i never said they're not deep, i said that i don't find THAT MUCH depth in them which means relative to other things i like with characters that i like more. sorry this concept is too difficult for some people to comprehend or even fathom, its ok though i know it doesnt matter what id say, maximo would still find any excuse to be all over my cock

anyway few things:
i find it funny that classic literature somehow cannot be overrated, yeah because overrated is confined only to things non-classical literature
additionally this guy tells me not to put words into his mouth, yet man look at all the shit youve been spewing because i said one sentence. you even thought i didnt appreciate the things i said were overrated even though in the same sentence i clearly stated i did appreciate them. whoa there...whoa lol...
so yeah just dont want anyone who wasnt lobotomized and likes video games to know im not hating on them, you guys are cool, keep up the work, i felt like maybe something was wrong with me to be totally truthful cuz i guess im not able to relate to certain characters as easily as everyone else is..made me take a double take on some of my fave games and realize hey maybe i can take these characters a little more seriously you know? although i still dont care that much, prob can attribute it to me not being a big fan of much

p.s. im not even someone who reads a lot of books unless you count studying from physics/calc/mechanics textbooks 5+ hours a day reading, and yeah im pretty certain this has absolutely nothing to do with anything i said, i really doubt anyone else feels that i was MALICIOUSLY ATTACKING thousands of people, its quite clearly just maximo tripping out at me per usual but man its ok whatever you want to do is cool, just remember no homo

[Cubical]

Actually some of the games i see or foresee coming, only cater to fan boys. =\ A guy i meet at college called the Wii a prettier verison of the GC. Which is basically is on many levels.

Game wise, im not really looking forward to Tales of Symphonia: A new world. I just got my nintendo power the other day and good god Namco, fucking half of the game takes place in PLACES I ALREADY saw in the previous installment....even the writter was disappointed at this shit too. Not to mention you only have 2 humans in your party and the rest are animal things.....

The fucking pure beauity of the original TOS was all the different people you meet. Even in the newest version they only show up 'temporarily' then leave. WTF! What the fuck..

[Rav]

i feel that way with zelda now. yo im gonna be honest i think link is hot as hell and i fantasized about him in like middle school. you dunno how intense twilight princess was for me -- infact its the only console ive played for years aside from like mario kart/smb at pre-parties. i cant separate my fan girl passion from a like for link's character...i really think link lacks one entirely, and i mean wasnt he even made that way so players had a better chance of putting themselves into his place? yeah i think there are a lot of video game characters like that, so it's not just me tripping, cuz i read about a lot of chars being designed to be ambiguous

[Old Mandrill]

i feel that way with zelda now. yo im gonna be honest i think link is hot as hell and i fantasized about him in like middle school. you dunno how intense twilight princess was for me -- infact its the only console ive played for years aside from like mario kart/smb at pre-parties. i cant separate my fan girl passion from a like for link's character...i really think link lacks one entirely, and i mean wasnt he even made that way so players had a better chance of putting themselves into his place? yeah i think there are a lot of video game characters like that, so it's not just me tripping, cuz i read about a lot of chars being designed to be ambiguous


PFFTTT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

[Rav]

http://uk.gizmodo.com/zelda.jpg
desktop bg was the twilight princess cover of link (includes the wolf but no furry here only nekos)
hot as shit man, if you looked like that maybe id let you get further

[Old Mandrill]

http://uk.gizmodo.com/zelda.jpg
desktop bg was the twilight princess cover of link (includes the wolf but no furry here only nekos)
hot as shit man, if you looked like that maybe id let you get further


This is the "Can Videogame stories be deep?" Not "How much can Rav prove how messed up nerd slutty she is."

[Cubical]

Twilight princess does have interesting perks but..im going to point at Link to the Past as their influence. The whole different world thing has been used before already. As does the transformation [Bunny Link]. I still think OoT is the highest achivement of any zelda game out there. Because you had a fresh new cast of faces and the impressions they left on the people that played it. Obviously they carried these throughout the other zelda games because of it, but it gets old. They should redesign new characters for zelda. Twilight people was a start but you never got to talk to nor see any of them untill you got to the twilight realm at the very end of the game...Also the lack of items/combat moves for wolf link was sad as well. Other than that i do like the Goblin people introduced and the adversary as well. As we fight him we get to find out more about the guy and in the end hes a pretty cool.

[Old Mandrill]

I actually think they should pause on Link Zelda and Gannon and take time to flesh out ALOT of characters way more often, they give you tidbits like Aryll, Linebeck, that kid who got kidnapped in TP, but I want a whole village to have an epic storyline, THEN work link gannon and zelda into that.

[The Jesus]

man i thought you pming me was obsessive, ok im sorry but i really dont wanna shoot sand, you gotta lighten up a bit, at least take some breaks my fucking cock is sore as hell

part of me feels obligated to respond only because i dont want to offend people who do have half a brain, i.e. the other people who posted in your thread such as cubical. guys, i used to be a huge gamer, i love video games, had the biggest crush on link and i think that they are more enthralling than books (OH FUCK I READ BOOKS). the characters themselves really are cool, and i never said they're not deep, i said that i don't find THAT MUCH depth in them which means relative to other things i like with characters that i like more. sorry this concept is too difficult for some people to comprehend or even fathom, its ok though i know it doesnt matter what id say, maximo would still find any excuse to be all over my cock

anyway few things:
i find it funny that classic literature somehow cannot be overrated, yeah because overrated is confined only to things non-classical literature
additionally this guy tells me not to put words into his mouth, yet man look at all the shit youve been spewing because i said one sentence. you even thought i didnt appreciate the things i said were overrated even though in the same sentence i clearly stated i did appreciate them. whoa there...whoa lol...
so yeah just dont want anyone who wasnt lobotomized and likes video games to know im not hating on them, you guys are cool, keep up the work, i felt like maybe something was wrong with me to be totally truthful cuz i guess im not able to relate to certain characters as easily as everyone else is..made me take a double take on some of my fave games and realize hey maybe i can take these characters a little more seriously you know? although i still dont care that much, prob can attribute it to me not being a big fan of much

p.s. im not even someone who reads a lot of books unless you count studying from physics/calc/mechanics textbooks 5+ hours a day reading, and yeah im pretty certain this has absolutely nothing to do with anything i said, i really doubt anyone else feels that i was MALICIOUSLY ATTACKING thousands of people, its quite clearly just maximo tripping out at me per usual but man its ok whatever you want to do is cool, just remember no homo

That post has a deep storyline.

[Cubical]

That and where the fuck did the kids with the fairies go? They had alot of personality too.

[Old Mandrill]

That post has a deep storyline.

My favorite part is how she's wrong to the bitter end. Such TRAGEDY.

[Old Mandrill]

That and where the fuck did the kids with the fairies go? They had alot of personality too.

Kids with the fairies?

[Cubical]

Kokiri - had to look the name up


Ocarina of Time is set in Hyrule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrule), a fictional kingdom surrounding Hyrule Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrule#Hyrule_Castle) and the setting of most Zelda games. Hyrule Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrule#Hyrule_Field) serves as a central hub connected to several outlying areas with diverse topography. Some of these areas are populated by one of the races of Hyrule: Hylians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Races_in_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Hylia), Gorons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Races_in_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Goron), Zoras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Races_in_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Zora), Kokiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Races_in_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Kokiri), and Gerudo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Races_in_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Gerudo).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time#_note-10) Each race generally stays within its region of Hyrule and is led by its own ruler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time

Im also proud to own one of these
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3b/GoldOoTn64Cart.jpg/800px-GoldOoTn64Cart.jpg

[Old Mandrill]

oh yeah, the way the went and told story about the diffrent races was really cool, but still just a start :\

[Cubical]

They should just pick up link and put him in a new setting. Different people/races, different problems. Let the triforce be a ending element whatever. If you just apply some of the same game mechanics, style found in traditional link games, wrap it up with a new updated plot, sceniro, and scenery you get one hot looking game.

[Old Mandrill]

They should just pick up link and put him in a new setting. Different people/races, different problems. Let the triforce be a ending element whatever. If you just apply some of the same game mechanics, style found in traditional link games, wrap it up with a new updated plot, sceniro, and scenery you get one hot looking game.


I say make the story CO-Hero like Resident Evil, with Link and Zelda, and they have to work with characters to tap into more stories, each character with a chain of diffren stories, sometimes you only play as zelda sometimes you only play as link. Whatddya say?

oh PS. Make Gannon and Ganondorf seperate characters? just for a suprise...Make Dark link and Vati WAY more important and have 4 villians! yes!!

[Joey]

i wish i knew the story line behind zelda 2
to me it was a really linear story line
every time i killed a boss there was a weird tiki guy whos head emerald would give me lots of exp
and a lot of the time i went into towns and spoke to guys named error it was really weird and trippy
ganon laughed at me every time i died it was scary
i remember i beat the game when i was like 11 and i killed dark link and zelda finally woke up so i guess dark link held the potion of awakening or something but i guess none of the other bosses in the temples did
also that game was sick because it had random encounters, well kind of. and you got some fuckin crazy magic and shit
game was awesome, an RPG sidescroller. sick damage

rav: rofl you had a crush on link, thats cute
my mom says when i was REALLY little i used to tell people i was mario and my best friend was luigi :(

[Cubical]

I say make the story CO-Hero like Resident Evil, with Link and Zelda, and they have to work with characters to tap into more stories, each character with a chain of diffren stories, sometimes you only play as zelda sometimes you only play as link. Whatddya say?

This is sort of what half life 2 does. Gordon and Alyx pretty much do what your implying. She does the technical mojo, and you shoot stuff till it dies. Sometimes you switch roles, she sometimes gets a better weapon and uses it only on a particular level, or in some cases you save one another as seen in episode 2. Then again, half life 2 had chapters were you played solo as well. WHICH IS VERY NICE MIGHT I ADD. Thats the reason i like the half life series, they feed you different 'shooting style' scenarios. Highway 17 is mostly driving, Sandtraps is mostly driving til the end. Nova prospekt you solo it untill you hit a chapter called Entanglement, where you meet up with Alyx to hack/infiltrate deeper into the base. Then after that chaper it switches to Anticitizen One where you go back to soloing half of the way, meet up with rebels second half. Along the way you are also feed different amounts of emenies, such as robots[man hacks], zombies, or combine. Eariler in the game, you get to go through a town filled with zombies as well. But later on these elements of game play are mixed up, and often mixed together. As seen in anticitizen one where headcrab pods hit some of the buildings and zombify people with some combine inside of these buildings too.

These AI's also fight each other as well. And because this is a building, you get nice oppertunities to snipe, or blow up shit in dynamic and interesting ways. Of course this depends on how the level is set up and how you play it.

[Piffy]

I think a video game can have a deep story. Unfortunately, to me, most video games have very cartoony and outlandish character designs as well as settings to match, and it can make the plot and their personalities very difficult to take seriously. That's not to say that video games don't have deep stories. Some do. I just have trouble appreciating them and I feel really dorky selecting examples.

@Rav: You do know Link is 13, right?

[Teon]

I've encountered several games in the past I thought had deep story lines. Then again, I don't read too many classical novels...

Oh, but I thought there was an adult Link too :p

[Deis' assault]

I'll take my time and say this.

FF7 was the first rpg I played (the year, or year after it's release). Loved the story and the characters. But as I kept up with the series up to 10, I noticed something very monotonous which totally turned me off after being done with 10.

To put it simple, I really started to hate how repetitive the structure of the stories in each game were. I realized it was also the same in titles before 7 (such as 6). For example, by the time Square got to 10, Seymour (which was made to look like the at first the "big" enemy but not the real threat) just seemed like he was tossed at the main cast repeatedly as some form of extending the time of gameplay by 15 minutes after his first defeat.

7 was a good start for me getting into games that were good on storylines. The stories/characters of the other games were enjoyable, nothing epic. Looking back on it I felt like the experience was like taking a book and refreshing most of the content in it except the "what happens when" effect and calling it part 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.


I put down Final Fantasy after that and don't plan on playing any more FF titles again ... unless of course they release something like Tactics of course. However oddly as it may be, I don't remember it much beyond general gameplay and how much I enjoyed it overall.

[Mushironsha]

I knew this was Maximo's thread before I opened off-topic.

[Jayed]

Videogames CAN have really great stories, but I think for the most part, executives in charge of these games are more interested in pushing out something marketable, which is generally something formulaic.

There is a reason artsy/indie movies don't make it to Regal Cinemas, same as why really clever story writers don't write for square-enix, necessarily.

[Boom]

i cried irl when aries died

still havent got past disk 1 because i refuse to save after that

[shiopi]

Am I the only one that liked FFXII's story?

[MagiGetal]

This calls for jack thompson!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eWFj1KShcI

[Cute Wittle Corgi]

I loved the ending to wind waker

the rest of the SAIL ACROSS THE SEAS FOR FUN AND PROFIT sucked though

[Realus]

Phoenix Wright

Final Fantasy Tactics

Metalgear

off the top of my head.

Qft; (also, I love those other two games [series for metalgear] too!)

The cases in Phoenix Wright were just epic; throw in the mix that I love trying to solve detective case things before the hero does, I got sucked into the story for these games.

[Batman]

Many games dont have good storylines, and those are more often than not the ones that suck balls. The memorable games are usually the ones with a good story line (or, if its an older game, backround story).

As for Zelda, I believe OoT was a high point/turning point, but I also thoroughly enjoyed TP.

I think they should change the pace of the Zelda series. Since every zelda game (with exception to Majora's Mask) is supposed to be a new world, and new universe, and a new link, why not change up the protagonist? Switch up who has which Triforce part. For example, in Zelda: Link's Decent, You play as Ganondorf, the holder of the triforce of courage, and you must defeat the evil power of Link with the triforce of power, and zelda, with the triforce of wisdom.

Then of course, we'd have to hear fanboys cry about their lost hero.

[Old Mandrill]

I think they should change the pace of the Zelda series. Since every zelda game (with exception to Majora's Mask) is supposed to be a new world, and new universe, and a new link, why not change up the protagonist? Switch up who has which Triforce part. For example, in Zelda: Link's Decent, You play as Ganondorf, the holder of the triforce of courage, and you must defeat the evil power of Link with the triforce of power, and zelda, with the triforce of wisdom.

Then of course, we'd have to hear fanboys cry about their lost hero.

...That would just be like switching bowser and marios names. a BIG change for a minor effect, total waste. I want a Zelda that makes me ACTUALLY question if the hero will win in the end, and thats next to impossible.


I don't think FF stories are DEEP. But alot of them are GOOD. FF4, and FF6 I REALLY enjoyed, FF7 and up I kind of hate. And I loooooooovvvvvveeee Chrono Trigger but I really question wether it was deep. I guess by "deep" i mean they make me ask questions about my own personal life, and yes alot of games DON'T do that but hey they can, they have, and they will.



Mush, what you think you know me well now?

[Saladin]

Um...Megami Tensei :[?

[George Zimmer]

Um...Megami Tensei :[?
^

[Saladin]

Phoenix Wright

Final Fantasy Tactics

Metalgear

off the top of my head.

Phoenix Wright is a great game, but by no means is it deep. It's like reading a good novel; the story is gripping and intriguing, but it's not thought-provoking.

[Pa.rabola]

Am I the only one that liked FFXII's story?

No, you're not!

[WK]

Chrono TriggerThat scene in the forest around the campfire. /thread

[Meiji]

The thing is, while games can and do have great stories, they're not what make the game. You have to strike a balance between gameplay and story in order to create a great game. While you can add in as many characters you like and flesh out each and every one's individual backstory and have them all do something significant for the story, if you go to far into it you can ruin the gameplay and make it boring.

I see stories in games as like water--you need a good amount to sustain it, but too much can drown it. Sometimes simplistic stories with a few twists here and there are all a game needs to be fun and great. I play games to play them, not read them or watch them. If I played games for just the story, then I'd be better off just reading a book or watching a movie/series. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a great story with cut scenes as much as anyone, but sometimes it's just too much to the point where I'm thinking "Get it over with so I can do something already".

[Simple.]

I reallllly enjoyed the Breath of Fire 2 story.

If I remember correctly you end up killing god as the final boss, fun stuff =).

[Saladin]

I reallllly enjoyed the Breath of Fire 2 story.

If I remember correctly you end up killing god as the final boss, fun stuff =).

Eh...Deathevan isn't really a god, persay. He's more of a spawn of Myria, who is the real goddess behind the world the first four Breath of Fire games (Tyr is really Myria).

Most people won't know the story behind the games, but I would say the War of Genesis series is pretty deep stuff =) You've all probably seen Hyung-tae Kim's artwork somewhere before.

[Shadow]

I think Halo had a pretty deep story as long as you've read the books to fill in the gaps before / after the games.

[Mushironsha]

Yeah so did Doom.

[Batman]

...That would just be like switching bowser and marios names. a BIG change for a minor effect, total waste. I want a Zelda that makes me ACTUALLY question if the hero will win in the end, and thats next to impossible.

Well, we're talking about deep stories here. That would surely make the story interesting, which is one of the components I would use to define a deep story. Interesting, Engaging, triggers empathy/sympathy, and complete from start to finish. A storyline doesnt have to have a lot of twist and turns to make it "deep", but that would surely fall under "interesting".

And what if they did my suggestion, but the ganondorf you played was actually the bad guy still. Wouldnt THAT make you question whether the hero would win? :stir:

[Saladin]

There's a difference between a DEEP story and an INTRIGUING/INTERESTING one. DEEP stories make you think. INTERESTING stories amuse you.

[Old Mandrill]

Thats why I said Phoenix Wright, I thought it was pretty thought provoking when they present you with this choice.

Get a notguilty verdict for guy who hires assasin, and save your friend.

Get a guilty vedict as the police are on the way and your friend may be assasinated.

I think thats a pretty tough call, especcially since your a defense lawyer and you have its your job to get him a not guilty. Then whatever you pick dosn't matter, the outcome is the same, but you have to wonder on why you picked what you did.

I see stories in games as like water--you need a good amount to sustain it, but too much can drown it. Sometimes simplistic stories with a few twists here and there are all a game needs to be fun and great. I play games to play them, not read them or watch them. If I played games for just the story, then I'd be better off just reading a book or watching a movie/series.

I disagree, story is as important as you make it. You can't drown a game in story, however you CAN drown it with cut scenes, and alot of nonplayible parts.

[Wakelord]

I liked the story in Luminous Arc for about the first ... hour. Then I realised how blatantly generic and boring it was :/ I could have practically written the whole story from start to end for you. PS: The priest is a witch?! PLOT TWIST.

I'd like to find a game with an enthralling storyline, not something you can predict within 10% of the game. ToS was pretty good that way.

PS: Final fantasy generally has lame storylines. 10 was pretty good, but 10-2 was so horrible it almost negates any boon 10 had. FF: Tactics though ... :/ Whyever did someone say FF:T have a good storyline?

[Batman]

There's a difference between a DEEP story and an INTRIGUING/INTERESTING one. DEEP stories make you think. INTERESTING stories amuse you.

Says who? There are plenty of things that are interesting because they make you think. I'm not saying that "deep" and "interesting" are one in the same, but I also dont think they are mutually exclusive.

[tuikyuo]

FF:T was definetly a good story. Was it deep? Depends on your point of view, I like the characters, Delita gave me the whole, "Being a bad guy and doing the right thing are two completely different things." Also great speeches, "Animals have no God."

ToS I think stands for Tales of Symphonia? I hated that storyline, it was interesting and then it ended with "dont be racist," and all that jazz. Was boring to me, the gameplay was fun as hell though.

MGS 3 had a great story. And Big Boss is such a kick ass character, the final lines between the Boss and Snake were epic especially the final scene. And I think the whole idea of a Soldier presented in the MGS series is, 'deep'.

[Boxy]

I actually agree with Rav on a few points with this max, characters are fairly often designed so players can superimpose themselves into the game. Before i put my 2c in how are we defining deep here? Its a fairly ambiguous term really with a lot of interpretations.

[Samias]

Sometimes a game doesn't have a deep story on the surface, but you can pull a lot out of what content they give you. For example, Majora's Mask, which I think was a little underrated because the game was fairly short and not everybody enjoys the Groundhog Day effect. Recently, somebody called Majora's Mask a "kid's game" based on its artistic style (which I think is bunk because the art was pretty dark as far as Zelda goes, too) and the fact you only played as child Link. They reused a lot of character coding from Ocarina of Time, too, so it didn't really push graphical barriers either. However, it had a much different story from OoT and most Zelda games in general. The big bad boss figure was the lonely Skull Kid controlled by an evil mask, and there was an impending sense of doom with the big huge moon threatening to destroy everything. Unlike most games where you can dilly dally as long as you want, time was always passing in Majora's Mask.

Also, although the game revolved around mask wearing, the masks themselves had a huge amount of meaning around them. The deku mask was Link's timid and weak side, a result of the Skull Kid's tricksome magic. The goron mask and the zora mask were the souls of dead heroes who were filled with regret that they could not save their race from the evils facing them. The stone mask was the guard's sadness that no one see him. The kamaro's mask was a teacher's desire to continue his craft even past his death. I can't remember what the chicken hat was called, but it was a musician's frustration that he was outclassed by a dog. The couple's mask embodied the determination of two lovers working to be together, even though the moon crashing into Termina would kill them both (until the cycle where you finally take down Majora). But the masks were not merely tools, but each one had meaning from the one who passed them down to you. Majora's Mask dealt with the issue of death of someone other than the Big Bad Guy head on.

I also treat Fire Emblem as one of the deepest games out there, but especially Sacred Stones. Although it's an easy game compared to most other FE games, PoR/RD really skimped out on support conversations, and the first GBA FE was restricted because it was a prequel, and I haven't had access to other FE games. The support conversations really make the game something special. It built up a lot of personality between all the units in your army, and because of skirmishes/Tower of Valni/Ruins of Lagdou, you could have a reasonably huge spread of support convos by the end of the game. FE is a remarkable game because every character has some importance and everyone is a unique individual. Of course, some are quirkier than others, but I think the effort that the designers put into developing each character is remarkable. I'm just very sad that FE:RD tossed support conversations out the window for the most part.

[Gaignun]

I thought Xenosaga had the right idea, but I'm a science fiction junkie, so what can I say. The first installment ended with so many loose ends, but then the second installment came and screwed everything up. Perhaps deep "fictional universe" is a more appropriate term.

[Old Mandrill]

I actually agree with Rav on a few points with this max, characters are fairly often designed so players can superimpose themselves into the game. Before i put my 2c in how are we defining deep here? Its a fairly ambiguous term really with a lot of interpretations.

Well I define "deep" as it makes you evaluate or question yourself especcially your values and what you think is "right" or "wrong". Mario RPG didn't do that, but some of the games I have listed have. Just because a character ( like chrono ) isn't deep, the story still can be, or other characters might.