Author Topic: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)Early access details  (Read 84947 times)

Offline Reverie

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 12:57:46 PM »
Every monster in the game doesn't spawn in the exact same spot as Amon Ra or Moonlight Flower.

That's the definition of random spawns not run to a spot and wait for respawns or competition.


Offline Rya.Reisender

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2013, 12:56:25 AM »
To make it clear:

All other MMORPGs except RO:
1. Walk to spawn spot of monster that you want / need to kill.
2. Kill it.
3. Wait until it respawns.
4. Jump to 2. (repeat forever until quest done or you are bored)
Many of them feature targetting by pressing "tab" and auto attack by pressing "1" (if you hotkey auto-attack there). So all that game is about is pressing tab,1,tab,1,tab,1,tab,1,tab,1. Nothing more to it.
You won't actually see much of the world. Especially not with party members, because why would they go into a region without the spawn they need? Most regions off the main path usually don't even have any monsters on them. There are never any surprises, no monster will suddenly spawn next to you (unless you stand at a spawn point but then it was there in the first place). Usually even the respawn time is as low as 5 seconds, there is no way to "clean" an area, no room for "mobbing" techniques. If you let monsters follow you, they will usually turn around and walk back to their spawn spot.
This kind of gameplay is soooo boring and the reason why I generally strongly dislike the MMORPG genre.

Ragnarok Online is different. Here if you kill a monster, it will spawn somewhere else. You will need to explore the whole map to find it again. You can actually clean up an area of the map. If you find a region of the map where nobody ever goes to you will be surprised by a massive amount of monsters being there. You can play with a party and actually WALK around. You can define yourself some kind of "Hey let's try to play through this dungeons without using flywings" goal and have fun with a party.
Only in RO this all is possible and it's thanks to one thing - random spawn locations.

I've never found another MMORPG that has this.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:05:01 AM by Rya.Reisender »

Offline Murray

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2013, 04:30:14 AM »
Very true, I haven't seen any game that has the same monster spawns as RO.

Even in RO2 they have standard spawns and monsters spawn in basically the same location.

If they managed to make it like RO1 the world would feel huge, with big plains and mounts would have an actual function as it can take a long time to walk across it. It would be pretty great.


Technology today would allow it too.

Offline Ryochan

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2013, 09:13:31 AM »
Well said Rya, I also wish for experience from monsters be kept the same no matter what level you are. I've had my favorite share of monsters I liked hunting just because, it didn't matter to me that they didn't give a butt load of experience. But I'd also know I'm still getting rewarded decently and not getting 1-10 exp when they'd in reality give 3k exp.
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Offline Toledo

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2013, 11:20:03 AM »
What's probably the most mindblowing nowodays about (pre-renewal) RO is that there are no instances. Well there are few for making god items, but minibosses and bosses are just out there for anyone to grab - first come, first served.

Offline ZeroTigress

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2013, 12:02:20 PM »
I see what you guys mean. Is it that hard to program a 3D game to have randomized spawn points?
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Offline Rya.Reisender

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2013, 01:12:53 AM »
As a programmer, I'd say it's actually pretty easy. You just pick a random x and y coordinate and for the z coordinate you need to check for the height of the ground at the current x and y position. Nothing too hard.

I'm not really sure why nobody ever put that into a game ever.

Offline Murray

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2013, 05:41:04 AM »
Quote from: Rya.Reisender;1368633
As a programmer, I'd say it's actually pretty easy. You just pick a random x and y coordinate and for the z coordinate you need to check for the height of the ground at the current x and y position. Nothing too hard.

I'm not really sure why nobody ever put that into a game ever.


They think it's too hard for the players to actually have a world to explore and they can't direct their "kill x amount of y monster" to a specific spot, it would have to be a specific areas.


Basically game developers think all players must be guided.

Offline Rya.Reisender

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2013, 05:49:36 AM »
Well luckily there are still some indie developers who like giving their games complete freedom.

Originally this was also RO's biggest appeal. That there are no NPCs telling you what to do and you could just go anywhere and are only limited by too hard monsters.

Offline Murray

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 11:00:53 AM »
Quote from: Rya.Reisender;1368643
Well luckily there are still some indie developers who like giving their games complete freedom.

Originally this was also RO's biggest appeal. That there are no NPCs telling you what to do and you could just go anywhere and are only limited by too hard monsters.


Right?

I feel that's how it should be. The whole turn-in "quests" from Gravity now sucks. It completely takes away from the exploration. I mean I spent close to five years exploring every map Ragnarok Online had, because of too hard monsters or quests that you only got from certain npcs.

Offline ZeroTigress

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 01:01:43 PM »
The original turn-ins we had years ago actually encouraged players to go out into lesser used maps. Don't know why they decided to take those out in favor of the retarded ones we have now.
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Offline Akintunde

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2013, 02:15:09 PM »
Quote from: ZeroTigress;1368558
I see what you guys mean. Is it that hard to program a 3D game to have randomized spawn points?


That depends.

In RO, your floor tiles have 2 states: Passable, impassable.  If a tile is impassable, monsters can't spawn on it.

In 3D games, you typically rely on invisible walls to dictate impassable locations, but if you've ever used a gameshark in your life you know that inaccessible areas are still walkable.  You don't get stuck randomly because you don't have any valid spots to move.

Which brings up the important question: is there a reasonable way to decide if land is reachable, mathematically?  To which I would simply answer "no".  Think about your first meeting with Baphomet in RO2.  He's behind an impassable barrier (Crack in the Dimension).  There is no way to legit walk there.  But the area IS accessible via NPC.  How would the game know if you can go there or not?  Unless they explicitly mapped areas where spawns can happen (And were careful not to include impassable areas), randomized spawns in 3D games is much more complex.

Another important point is that RO is a very unique game in its monster distribution.  Fully random is out of the question for most MMO's, since one map will have level 50 aggressive mobs around level 7 passive mobs.

So how about area spawns?  They would certainly be possible.  Defining a few rectangles in 3D space is by no means impossible, but it is certainly more work than pointing at a map location and going "it'll spawn here".

Offline Prodigy

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2013, 03:10:02 PM »
^Just a little side note: take a look at iRO back in the hocus-pocus days. Bosses summoned inside buildings could easily teleport into a passable cell, but was completely surrounded by impassable cells. It always broke my heart a little to see a boss teleport, only to find it sitting behind some fence.

Heck, I once used Snatch on an Icewall inside a building (at Alde, I believe) and I ended up in a similar spot as above. That was back when bwings still had the same limitations as flywings (unusable in places where you can't tele). So I ended up having to e-mail a gm and waited for a 1-2 days to get out.

Speaking of fly wings and tele, that's one major feature that lets us comfortably run around an entire map for leveling. Time and again, I appreciate how powerful a traveling tool random teleportation is. And the only reason it works in RO is because of how its maps were designed: with clear-cut boarders and portals. Where as every new mmo are going for the smooth, continuous maps that make up the entire world map.
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Offline Toledo

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2013, 09:26:41 PM »
Quote from: Prodigy;1368681
^Just a little side note: take a look at iRO back in the hocus-pocus days. Bosses summoned inside buildings could easily teleport into a passable cell, but was completely surrounded by impassable cells. It always broke my heart a little to see a boss teleport, only to find it sitting behind some fence.

That was nothing but lazy map design on Gravity's part though. All they had to do was make everything unaccessible an unpassable terrain.

Offline ZeroTigress

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Re: Tree Of Savior (Project R1)
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2013, 11:12:40 PM »
Well, one thing to consider with fixed spawn areas in 3D MMOs is roads. Sometimes in RO, I like to just pass through a map without having to kill monsters along the way. That is something I can always count on in 3D MMOs: safe passageways that even newbies can travel through to get to the next town without having to worry about dying.
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