Author Topic: Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV  (Read 1142757 times)

Offline Doddler

  • The Oracle
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« on: September 08, 2009, 11:23:39 PM »
Data for the homunculus exp chart.  Exp is exp required to reach the next level.  I'll post more when I can play for a bit longer.

34 21,340
35 22,504
36 23,280
37 25,220
38 26,675
39 28,130
40 28,800
41 30,240
42 31,680
43 32,640
44 34,560
45 36,000
46 36,480
47 38,400
48 40,320
49 42,720
50 45,120
51 47,040
52 48,960
53 50,880
54 52,800
55 54,720
56 56,640
57 59,040
58 60,480
59 62,400
60 64,320
61 66,240
62 67,200
63 70,080
64 73,920
65 76,800
66 80,640
67 84,480

Offline Mischelle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 11:41:51 PM »
Quote from: Doddler;532465
I can see complaining if you pumped AGI primarially for defense, but you don't pump AGI for defense, you do it for offense.  AGI is the single greatest offensive stat for melee characters, and for characters that take it to the extreme, it also becomes a powerful defensive stat.  How can you complain about that?

I beg to differ, because RKs are melee and agi is definitely not their best stat, Dex is.  And after dex, Luk and Str equally.  Similar rules apply to sura and smith.

Agi may be the best stat for ctrl-click melee characters, but that is pretty much just GXs.

Other than that, carry on =D

Quote from: Atum;532240
The problem for me is that it should be possible to dodge hits as easy as hitting people if you invest enough in agi/equip.
Why is it so easy to hit enemies in woe but make it so hard to dodge enemies, or better : why does gravity want people to not dodge any hits at all in woe?
I put a char who was equipped for flee only, sacrificing everything else against a normal RK and even unequipped its not possible to dodge him, where is the balance there?

IMHO, the flee reduction for woe is a definite necessity.  Otherwise, your average-run-of-the-mill GX is going to run around with 100% ability to dodge physical attacks.  And that same GX can use a GTB shield to gain 100% immunity to magic, basically making an unstoppable force.  To reduce it to being useless is rather ridiculous, also, and I don't believe gravity would take it to that extreme.  Chopping down just the base flee by 25% sounds fair, but as we've seen in renewal, not all the mechanics are that simple.  Flee is asymptotic, and perhaps the reduction is applied after the fact.  ie: a 25% reduction is applied directly to your % chance to dodge, either by direct subtraction or 25% reduction in the current value (50% dodge - 25% OR 50*(.75)%)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 11:56:05 PM by Mischelle »
The enemy gate is down.
Quote from: Viri
not retarded post for once
Source

Inevitable.  Eventually everyone agrees with me on something.

Offline Soki-Sung

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 01:10:20 AM »
isnt there a -25% to flee in woe right now in non-renewal ro anyway? If so then its just geting set back to the norm.

Offline omnimon3000

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/omnimon3000
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 02:00:45 AM »
By Norm? You mean back to the old one before renewal T_T Renewal was supposed to give balance, back then the "norm" is everybody is vit type and equipments are reduction cards, nobody uses flee T_T
It was the same for everybody there was no variety.

Again, 100% flee does not mean you are invinsible, there are lot of counters even if 100% flee is reached (And it is hard to reach 100% flee mind you).
By using flee equips you are forsaking defensive equipments such as anti-magic or melee.

At 100% flee, you are still hit by magic, skills ignoring flee and CRIT. There are lots of counters to this. And to get there you give up defensive cards T_T (Hunters will still hit you by the way XD that 100% flee is just mere representation of what I am saying)
Pro Valkyrie

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Check out my Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/omnimon3000

Offline Rumm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1753
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 06:00:30 AM »
Additionally flee does 2 things for magic classes like wizard:
-it increases the value of their magic and the need for skill counters since people can't normally dodge it
-it gives the more fragile classes of AB/Warlock the chance to possibly dodge physical attacks.  
This update discourages them from heavy agi involvement for defensive PVP reasons.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 06:01:22 AM by Rumm »

Offline Hitori

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1148
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 08:03:29 AM »
actually it's 95% flee, 100% doesn't exist since beta RO. your flee value can also be lowered by being targeted simultaneously by more them 3 foes don't remember the exact mechanics but being aimed by 5 or more enemies lower your dodge rate considerably and something like 12 rowens will eat a 115 GX with over 600 flee(using H.Walk) alive.

So there are still other weakness to flee but we'll see, I mean, there were still plenty of people missing things in every KRO woe video where the woe reductions were already aplied, so.... yeah


Rustaway, get yours today.
Warning: do not confuse with justaway, thos things explode in your face

Offline Doddler

  • The Oracle
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 08:32:55 AM »
More homunculus exp data:

68- 87360
69- 91200
70- 104500
71- 121600
72- 133000
73- 147250
74- 154850
75- 161500
76- 171000
77- 178600
78- 185250
79- 190000
80- 218500
81- 247000
82- 285000
83- 332500
84- 380000
85- 456000
86- 522500
87- 570000
88- 646000
89- 712500
90- 855000

Offline Lucentos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2406
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 08:41:15 AM »
Quote from: Doddler;534370
More homunculus exp data:

68- 87360
69- 91200
70- 104500
71- 121600
72- 133000
73- 147250
74- 154850
75- 161500
76- 171000
77- 178600
78- 185250
79- 190000
80- 218500
81- 247000
82- 285000
83- 332500
84- 380000
85- 456000
86- 522500
87- 570000
88- 646000
89- 712500
90- 855000

It seems that new Exp table for Homunculus is more like exp table for player. And i`m guessing that Doddler`s thoughts about that Genetic will be released next can be true.

Offline Rolamaster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 10:28:03 AM »
Quote from: Neece;533182
Edit: Rolamaster, it seems that you didn't read what I wrote, after all GX is NOT the only agi class in the whole game, you know? To THEM the flee nerf MIGHT be fair, but, to the others, it's NOT. You can't balance the WHOLE game on a single class. That's when you nerf the said class to be balanced with the rest of the game.


I agree ... they might nerf constantly in 30 % the flee ONLY of the GX's and other classes a less nerf (10~15 %). as well as they "balanced" the Rune knight giving penalties of-15aspd with shield,-10ASPD 2hs, frenzy and THQ dont stack and all the increases of aspd based on the agi deposited. completely that in order that the RK's do not reach very high values of ASPD (193) decently. all for good of the play. do you agree?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 11:28:07 AM by Rolamaster »

Offline omnimon3000

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/omnimon3000
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 10:38:54 AM »
I'm gonna post htis here cause I feel it fits better in this thread.

*Other Rants*

Skill VS Melee   +  talk about cooldowns

   
It has long been known that ragna advocates either mindlessly skill spamming or mindlessly ctrl+clicking all these years, and now finally I want to share what I think about this.
 Let me first define what an offensive skill normally does, it is a move that multiplies your output by a certain amount in a very short time span, a.k.a "Burst Damage". This helps in quickly taking down your enemy, take note of the word help.
Generally enough, in DOTA or WOW, they can quickly reduce the enemies HP inorder for the enemy to have less time to counteract your damage. Although there are skills that deals sustained damage over a longer period of time.
Also take note that these skills have long COOLDOWNS, either in DOTA or WOW. This advocates the players to use the skills wisely and efficiently.
To strike a great balance between using skills and melee attack, the skills damage must never overshadow the "DPS(over a long period of time)" of the melee attacks. But do not fret, this does not mean the skills are useless.

Take for example:
You only use your melee attacks at 3 hits per second
(Each attack is 500 damage)
You do this until the enemy dies
With an enemy having 10000 HP while potting at 500 hp/s
15000hp+500hp/s(t) - 1500hp/s(t) = 0
15000hp = 1000hp/s(t)
t = 15 seconds
The enemy dies in 15 seconds

Now a scenario where you use skills in conjunction with melee (having a delay of about 1 second after the skill is used to simulate the "Lag" in ragnarok)

(Each attack is 500 damage at 3 attacks per second)
(You have two skills:
1) 500% instant and no delay skill with 20 seconds cooldown (+1 sec 'lag" time)
2) 1500% skill that has a delay of 1 sec+1sec(lag time) and has 30 seconds cooldown)
You do this until the enemy dies
With an enemy having 15000 HP while potting at 500 hp/s
Use the instant skill first then 1 sec lag the  immediately use 1500% skill with 1 sec + 1 sec lag
Then immediately attack:
T = t + 3
15000hp+500hp/s(T) - 2500hp - 7500hp - 1500(t) = 0
5000hp + 500hp/s(t+3) - 1500(t) = 0
5000hp + 500hp/s(t) + 1500hp - 1500(t) = 0
6500hp = 1000hp/s(t)
t = 6.5 seconds
T = 6.5s + 3s
T = 9.5 s

Meaning you killed the character in 5.5 seconds lesser time than when you did not use skills.

Note: Further rants will be made and it will be sure fired filed with proof for your reading pleasures ^_^
The enemy dies in 7.5 seconds
One of my future rants will be to advocate chaining spells XD
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 10:40:46 AM by omnimon3000 »
Pro Valkyrie

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Check out my Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/omnimon3000

Offline Doddler

  • The Oracle
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 11:19:17 AM »
Random Video: Negative Heal.

Offline omnimon3000

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/omnimon3000
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 11:25:56 AM »
O_O WHAT the? Negative heal XD Is there a negative attack too?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 03:10:36 PM by Atum »
Pro Valkyrie

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Check out my Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/omnimon3000

Offline Keidran

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2009, 11:44:13 AM »
Just a small little question.
What will be the best MvP weapon after renewal for a champ? Will it be the over upgraded Stunner with 2 Abys cards or something else? Because the stunner is one mace with the most wp Atk.

Best Regards,
Keidran

Offline Wanderer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 469
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2009, 12:00:47 PM »
Lunar Skillet[3] imo
Warning: Reading the Tirades more than 5 minutes a day causes brain damage.

Offline Iruga Niisan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 605
    • View Profile
Re: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread IV
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2009, 03:15:43 PM »
Quote from: Rolamaster;534532
Quote from: Iruga Niisan;533376

Your justice understanding is very interesting..

WTF YOU CALL GX's DPS INSANE??? Look at the screen first, is "100" damage insane??? Do not talk bullshit, i don't have to waste 20M zeny just for EDP per WoE to kill.

This damn EDP should be removed from the game, not to see this type of nerving pointless speechs.


calm little buddy, it is time of your medicine =P

you hit 100 damage with your GX? then I cannot help you ... your char is 'cursed'. =P
at a little time I received hits of 4k/hit in pvp of a GX's 150 (I was not with thara and beret). if I to find it again I catch the name, I pass for you and you send PM for him ... asking "WHAT IS YOUR BUWILDY AND EKIPS PLX PLS! 11ONE!!??!!!?!" OK?


are you poor? has it no money for EDP? I'm so sorry ... try to play with classes that do not need consumable items. you can be a "medium laborer".

to delete EDP of the game? no, it is a necessary 'evil', otherwise all the GX's would be the same as you. we are going to think before about a less drastic attitude, just the nerf.

bye!

It was not me hitting "100" with the GX, if you'd follow the forum topics you'd see that but the only thing you do is talking what you have in your mind.

It's the same GX who is making 2.5k per crit in PvP which means there is a "CLEAR" imbalance on this character, at one side  being pure "loser" without EDP, and at the other side being "pure" demon with EDP.It doesn't require a big logic but maybe its still hard for you, i can understand.

EDP is something questionable for sin class, it was possibly supposed to buff sin class but built wrong, a sin is not supposed to be a kind of item consumer class such as creator or proff.And the money matter, i can simply claim that its very hard to spend around 25M per WoE for most of the players.

If you want EDP to be nerfed, you have to balance the class first.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 03:22:19 PM by Atum »
Turim: "I\'m done with Ragnarok..."
[SIGPIC]http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2691/824714dfe0e55f597d0a7e9.gif
[/SIGPIC]