General: Ragnarok Renewal Discussion Thread V

Originally Posted by Neece

As Atum said, it should last a lot longer, but be a lot weaker too (like +100%, but lasting half an hour). Then all problems would be solved.

I wouldn't agree. If it actually were just +100%, it would just plain suck. Crit builds wouldn't be killing anyone at all.

There's also a similar skill. Maximum Power-Thrust. It costs 5000 zeny to activate, gives +100%, lasts 3 minutes and can be dispelled. Yeah, it's good for pvm, but it's terrible in pvp environments.

So... heres the deal... everything stays the way it is with edp except it doesn't stack at all with any skills, we get a revision on some of the new poisons so they can actually see use instead of one big op poison that does all(maybe work with grimtooth). If EDP stops to efectivelly work on skills they become easier to balance and we get some cute new tricks with our old skill so GX who don't want to relly on edp can spend sp to try something out without being called noobs because critting edp so far is te most reliable way to kill and like most people complain the more brainless one.

How does that sound? too much?

Crit buils (my sin is crit high aspd =p) are not suposed to kill things in the blink of an eye. They are suposed to disable and kill slowly. It's not for nothing that usual skills can't spread the new poisons, only normal attacks and 2 venom-inducing specific skills. I belive it would pervert the usefullness of crit to make it the best killing way possible (as EDP does now). But maybe a compromise, like 5 min (7.5 min with poison research( +200% damage would be better option than 1 min +400%. It would allow for crit builds to kill without being too much OP, and would make skill builds viable.

Also, Frost, don't forget that racial reductions now reduce only the first 100% of the damage. Prenewal those +100% sucked because they were also reduced by racial (200% -40% od them, 120% damage total, reduced by equip def and then status def). Now they would be a lot better (160% reduced by equip def and status one). A +400%, in this new reduction scenario makes non-edp attacking utherly useless, but EDP melee extremely powerfull. Finding and balance between both is the ideal, I belive.

Lucentos, you sure of that? If so, we need to test what skill bonus is treated as simple +X at the end of the formula, and which ones are like masteries.

Originally Posted by Frost

I wouldn't agree. If it actually were just +100%, it would just plain suck. Crit builds wouldn't be killing anyone at all.

There's also a similar skill. Maximum Power-Thrust. It costs 5000 zeny to activate, gives +100%, lasts 3 minutes and can be dispelled. Yeah, it's good for pvm, but it's terrible in pvp environments.

1: let it give 200% boost, Let it last longer, give it long afteruse delay;
2b: make it inflict "hemotoxined" status (+/- 7 %) which will result in inability to heal/pot out damage, lasting several seconds.
2a: make it increase damage of the next hit +/- 7% if it's processed 0.X sec after the previous.
[normal attacks only for both]
3: Decrease hp mod of the class.

Critical builds will be able to unleash barrages of hits that will (after several first hits) disable healing process and effectively slaughter the target, or will increase damage dealt by single crits rapidly, with same effect.

Skill builds will get damage boost, which however will not allow them to continue "1hko or gtfo" bullshit.

The class will be forced to avoid combat in open ground, but rather - look for opportunities to kill strategic targets

hmmm.... at 193 doing 2,5k edp crit damage 7x 2,5k that's 17,5k a second so killing in this particular condition takes 2~3 seconds in average...

But a GX will usually reach around 182~186 aspd... how much is that? 2,5~3,5 atacks per second?

so it's 2,5k x2,5=6,25k damage per second or 2,5k x 3,5= 8,75k damage per second

sooo to take down a 20k hp foe that's just standing like a log with 182 aspd you need:4~5 seconds and a more resilient foe that also stands as a log with 50k you take around 7 to 8 seconds.

With a 186 aspd (assuming I didn't miscalculate) a 20k hp foe takes 3 seconds to fall and a 50k oponent takes around 5~6 seconds assuming they both don't use any of their own defensive skills or try to avoid run and pot vs the GX.

Is this killing speed high or low in a woe enviroment?

I'm thinking that what really needs to be nerfed first is the kvm +9 katar

Video: Satan Morroc 2 man kill (SakrayJ)

Slapz, the problem is, there are only 4 open-ground melee combat classes in the game. RK, RG, GX and Mech. GX are not Rogues from WoW, they are more like a mix betwen what you would expect from a thief and from a fighter.

But yeah, your idea of edp giving an stackable damage per hit is nice. I would sugest +7.5% damage and -4% recovery eficiency, capping at +75% damage and -40% recovery eficiency, after 10 attacks on the target. They would be treated as counters on the target, affecting all attacks it received. Also, if properly combined with a +9 Ogre Toenail and the recovery-reducting poison, it would render target's recovery null. Ok, maybe that would be too much OP... but +50%/-20%, considering it would stack with other effects, would make it "perfect" (also, lasting longer). +50% damage from all sources (not reductible by racial, and not multiplied by skills) and up to -80% recovery eficiency would make the class extremely feared assassins. Not by a stupidly high damage output, BUT because if you were targeted by one of them, you would be as good as dead. And, if giving no more +% damage and keeping the class with it's HP mod, they would still be melee fighters, BUT not the ones responsible for slaughtering, but "finishing" the job, or making it possible for all other guildmates.

Not to mention that +50% damage taken would make PvM and MvP way easier.

But guys, let's take this discussion to the GX thread, shall we? This is the general discussion thread, not GX sugestion one.

Edit: Hito, that's some absurdly high DPS. Alone it would be fair, but in the usual WoE enviroment, that's plainly OP to the bat.

Edit 2.0: HOLY ****, IS THAT A 120K+ UNLEXED ACID BOMB?!!?

Originally Posted by Doddler

Video: Satan Morroc 2 man kill (SakrayJ)

Thanks for sharing.

Yet I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Originally Posted by Doddler

Video: Satan Morroc 2 man kill (SakrayJ)

wow doesn't that destroy the biggest attraction of having a party system with several different classes? Well i suppose the same thing could be done with any 2nd killing class that can kill Morrec before m.strength wears off and without Agro'n his attention. Still while that is cool to see pulled off this isn't a solo or 2 player game. What the dealyo.

Also: I'd like to see this combo, or a 2~3 sura combo in ET

Which means they need to quickly give these dumb MVP's AI's to be feared XD

Originally Posted by Neece

Edit 2.0: HOLY ****, IS THAT A 120K+ UNLEXED ACID BOMB?!!?

175-189k unlexed and assu-ed ABomb

That's kind of sick damage..... are de def medf reductions not working with satan morroc???

Is this kind of damage output that's going to stop geneticist from using his pure damage based skills??

only time will tell...

Why the hell was this topic closed?

@Topic : The damage is this high because of high atk weapon, % cards, aspersio and satan morroc has 200 vit.
Or maybe the biochem uses an excorciser or icepick, not sure if damage ignore weapons work with AB.

I honestly think that this damage is pretty ok for acidbomb and i hope they keep acidbomb damage the way it is because this finally justifies the high cost per use, however they need to give acidbomb a 10~15 second re-use delay to balance it out with other classes.

While i'm quite happy the MVPs atk isnt as high as pre-renewal i dont really like how they decreased some endgame MVPs max hp, i liked Satan morroc with 10m+ hp more.

Also, i wonder if MVPs gonna learn Pile Bunker one day to dispell KE, Assu or Mental Strength but leave other buffs alone.

He already does double damage because of the elemental affinity of acid bomb (he's using excalibur), though from the sounds of things that might be fixed. The biochemist is pure STR/INT, with +10 excalibur, bloody shackle ball, porcellio fire armor, str vesper core. Assumptio no longer halves damage, but doubles defense. Def supposedly reduces bomb but it wouldn't really surprise me if it were bugged. Lastly, Satan Morroc has 200 vit, making him a pretty big bomb target.

Also, its worth mentioning that the champion used 267 ranked slim whites tanking. MS is really strong though with it's flat 1/10 damage, though it seems that it doesn't stop Evil Land.

AB pvp then: 175,000 / 2 (half on players)=87,500/2 (100 vit average not 200 for players)=43,750 before demi-human reductions/2 (elemental bonus)=21,875 average on players?

I thought they fixed AB/GF to not take elements anymore

Gravity devs only said they'd look into it after some player complaints.

And what happened to this thread D:? Why is there only 3 pages left ???

I tried calculating it and i think def just didnt reduce the damage for some reason.
I'm not sure if they changed ABs formula but when i used the formula i posted some months ago and used only monsters armor def/mdef i came to about 70k damage.
When using monsters armor def/mdef and status def/mdef (do monsters have status def/mdef in renewal?) i calculated about 20k damage, and that was without assu or size penalty for weapon.

@Frost : Its a new topic since the old one became too big

Originally Posted by Doddler

MS is really strong though with it's flat 1/10 damage, though it seems that it doesn't stop Evil Land.

Evil Land is a late game skill. Like Hellpower, Slow cast and area Souldrain. (BG RecoveryStaff)
Those skills were added so late, that they just added the basic code, where it fulfilled it's purpose.
EvilLand is a negative heal, that heals demons and negative heals humans (and demi-humans). I'd have to test if heal increasing equip (on you) would change the damage. But it'd also hurt you, when your dead. In Bossnia MVPs using EvilLand, will be killed with the Bio3 MVPs there

SlowCast, AreaSouldrain and even the +5 SP from the BG staff work even while your dead ... speaking of "ignoring MS"

Didn't the Japs fiddle with the game mechanics? Or didn't they want to do it? This seems a bit too much.

They didn't change game mechanics, but they are a bit behind. Their server still has the magic attacks as physical bug, and they don't have the latest monster balancing update (they still have the 30m HP randgris for example), so it's possible that his attack power is different from what it is on kRO right now. The one thing that jRO did, the removal of the level adjustment, was reverted yesterday during maintenance.