RK: RK vs RG Discussion

yes and pvp in general (that allows partys)

Just make a video of a RK and RG fighting and put here.... =P
Is hard to compare the skills without a real test.

@Secret123890
So you are saying that RGs should be gang banged to be killed. Will be a big ass threat And if left will wreck havoc?
(That sounds to me like the description of an offensive character (GX) )
And You know what, GXs have less survival ability than your RG(Defensive skills)
and can be killed without hesitation
(RGs ahve 105% reflect and 40% of that is AOE reflect)
And to top that, GX can't support his party and have less armor than an RG :P

RGs should be more off a meat shield with moderate damage and a big ass invulnerability spell(World of Warcraft Style).

But what ever, I'm retired from RO indefinitely until they balance all the classes

Paladin:
Faith 10
Holy Cross 6
Grand Cross 5
points used : 21 of 69... 48 points left

Auto Guard 5
Shield Charge 3
Shield Boomerang 5
Defending Aura 5
Shield Reflect 5
Rapid Smiting 5
points used : (21 + 28) of 69... 20 points left

Pecopeco Riding 1
Cavalier Mastery 5
points used : (21 + 28 + 6) of 69... 14 points left

Spear Mastery 1
points used : (21 + 28 + 6 + 1) of 69... 13 points left

Royal Guard:
Shield Press 3
Reflect Shield 5
Earth Drive 2
Shield Spell 3
Ray of Genesis 4
Piety 5
Inspiration 5
points used : 27 of 49... 22 points left

Moon Slasher 3
Banishing Point 9
Pinpoint Attack 5
Over Brand 5
Remaining points: 0

Oh wait, where's Prestige?? So you're saying you can do more damage than a RK with this setup. Ok, just wait until I get the reflect buff and stand right there like a retard waiting to get pwned. In the tests that Doddler made, he had SQ 10, making OB obviously stronger. PA has reuse delay of 3 seconds at level 5. OB misses. Stay away from OB's AoE of 3x3.... not that hard to evade. RS, always with RS. Cross Shield has 30% buff to RS(Get over with it), let's us consume more SP with every skill.

In general, it's very obvious that you have no experience, whatsoever, with this class. To you, all that matters is damage. And again, you say that the Hp difference is near negligible because of your obsession to nerf reflect so you can umm... add RGs to your list of very easy prey. Wow, 10k, to you is nothing when would do everything just to get that much more MHP. Oh yeah, because you have no experience playing with this class. So who's the clown now??

go and look the last 3 pages at least of the RG treat... come and say me who is the one that ''for you only dmg cares''
the cross shield dont look like a hurt to your sp dont?
since every RG has one guess what? ''for do more dmg'' again who is the one that dmgs cares?
anyways the RG have delicious sp modifier more if raise in a popular 4 100 stat which include it the INT stat.
yes 10k more hp is useless in this renewal when a ''low'' dmg is 15k you must admit it, well 10k hp talking about endurace dmg since 10k hp it cares when reflecting its the subject dont?

- long time ago when i start my complainings in the RG treat i see everybody, read well EVERYBODY only talks about RS of course when you have 105% reflect+ -80% ranged dmg+40% reflect aoe the only one thing you must worried is... how far you can hurt dont?

i said gravity have 2 choices.
1- nerf RS since RS was a metod of the pallys for make dmg and lvl up, if this happens the RG's gonna explore the rest of their skills whit modifiers of no more of 1k% some.

2- dont nerf RS and improve the rest of offensive skills but we know that will be stupid on a class that already has protected against every kind of dmg, so give them a way to do effective dmg it will be IMBA.

what does gravity? well everybody knows the answer and please look at the time i and a few more was the only complaining about RS was a really painfull skill for a char that its untouchable after the improvements of the RG...NOW there is complainers about the RG in every side of this forums dont?

i really dont care what you say i only know this MY skill build I MADE protect me againts all kind of dmg debuff, status ailments and guess for last time?
i have skills that deals +20k dmg againts a HUGE armored and hp char is about 60k hp...

EDIT: shield spell have 3 effects on all lvls right?
shield spell reflect effect has in lvl 1 that means 33% to trigger have 1 second aftercast and 2 seconds ''cooldown'' so we are tecnical its only 3 times you use this and its done, its no so hard as you want to make see us.

No. Shield spell can fail, so it could take from 1-15 attempts to actually get reflect.

Nerf RS? Why don't you say remove Crusader class? I really should've given you another chance. That's it, you're back on my ignore list. I severely regret the moment I thought to give you a chance as it's the right thing to do. Maybe it'd be better to keep things the way it was. I'm only human. You never accept reasoning for you think that yours is the right one and it should always be the case. Thank goodness you're not a part of Gravity's dev.

Getting back on topic,
@omni, defensive classes should take mobs easier. I never heard of a tank class that is easily killed by a rather small group of foes. I think you should've known that.

I extremely dislike how all RGs attack skills are power up-ed versions of RK skills (and hwiz skills):
(I'm trying to compare skills with similar abilities)

Hundred spear vs Banishing point
Hundred spear deals 1250% at level 150 and is quite spamable with a short casttime, short aftercastdelay but the downside is its huge sp cost (60 sp per skilluse) and its extremely short range (1 cell only, the target has to stand directly next to you). In addition to that it has an annoying spearboomerang-autocast if you have spear boomerang learned, which is more annoying/lowering your damage than being an advantage since the auto-spearboom pushes your target away (while you're trying to spam a skill on your enemy with only 1 cell range!) and gives you a longer aftercastdelay.
Banishing point on the other hand has no casttime, no aftercast/re-use delay so you can spam it even faster than Hundred spear and at level 150 it deals the same damage as Hundred spear but on top of that it also has 7 cells range.
Winner : Royal guard

Sonic wave vs Cannon spear
Sonic wave is pretty ok as long ranged skill for a melee-based class:
1250% damage at level 150, no casttime, 2 second re-use delay, hurts a single target.
Cannon spear however, while being nearly an exact copy of Sonic wave (range, damage casttime, re-use delay), is not single target only but hits all targets in a straight line so Cannon spear is way superior.
Winner : Royal guard

Ignition break vs Overbrand
Ignitionbreak is a super-version of Magnum break. It has a 1 second casttime, 2 second re-use delay, no aftercastdelay and deals 1500% damage at level 150 or 2250% if the RK uses a fire element weapon.
The non-existant aftercastdelay allows the RK to chain other skills right after using Ignitionbreak, the most populat combo is probably Ignition break + Bowling bash, resulting in ~2500% damage in 2 seconds or 3250% if the weapon is fire element.
Overbrand has 0.5 second casttime, 1.5 second aftercastdelay and deals a minimum damage of 1800%+1350% = 3150%.
If the enemy is next to a wall he will recieve an additional amount of damage, a guessed amount is +1500%
If the RG has spear quicken 10 learned he will increase the first hit (1800%) by an additional 300%.
Overbrands minimum damage deals the same damage as Ignition breaks IB+BB combo while, unlike Ignition break, not being required to have a fire element to deal its max damage, which is pretty unfair because fire element can only be used in a limited amount of places without risking elemental disadvantage and fire element in woe/pvp can be reduced by many common equipments while the RG can choose which element he wants to use and still do max damage.
If a target stands next to a wall it will recieve almost double the damage a RK can do with a IB+BB combo (4650% vs 2500%, not counting IBs element bonus or OBs spear quicken bonus) for half the casttime of Ignition break and less re-use delay as Ignition break.
Doddler tested overbrand against Boss monsters and Boss monsters recieve all three hits when standing next to a wall and they dont even get pushed back since boss monsters are immune against pushback so RGs can happily spam OB with 1.5~1.7 times the damage a RK can do.
Winner : Royal guard

Rage Burst Attack vs Crush strike
Both skills have individual prerequisites in order to cast them:
Rage Burst Attack needs "Anger-Spheres" that need to be collected by recieving hits while Crush Strike requires a rune item.
Crush Strike has a 30 second re-use delay while Rage Burst Attack has none, however you have to collect Anger-Spheres before you can cast this skill so its pretty much ok.
Crush strike deals slightly higher damage with a very high upgraded level 4 weapon and consumes an item, Rage burst attack has a better damage with level 150 unless used with a very high upgraded +4 weapon and does not cost any items but only time to collect the anger-spheres, i'd say this is pretty fair aswell.
A downside is that Crush strike has only 1 cell range and instead of the rune being consumed when the RK deals the damage the rune gets consumed once the RK doubleclicks on the rune, which means if the target runs away or position bugs (which very often happens with 1 cell ranged skills) the rune gets consumed but no crush strike happens.
However what i dont agree with is that Crush Strike destroys the weapon, i think its a stupid feature, using the rune, requiring an overupgraded weapon and 30 second re-use delay is payment enough.
I'd say its a tie if they fix the weapon-break part.

Dragon Breath vs Ray of Genesis
Dragon breath needs a very specific build to be really effective (very high vit/int), is fixed fire element
Ray of Genesis is like a super-Grand cross with either needs other Royal guards in banding or a single Royal guard needs to be in Inspiration mode to be able to cast it.
Both skills deal quite high damage, especially when used with specific builds and with either banding or Inspiration RoG gets enough damage boost to be on-par with Dragon breath and both have a fixed element.
The downsides of the skills are Ray of Genesis needing Inspiration or Banding to use and Dragon breath can be easily disabled by Shadow Chasers, especially pure Dragon breath builds.
Ray of Genesis consumes 15% of the users HP but the damage is not dependant on current hp while Dragon breath requires the user to be at always max hp to deal max damage.
I'd say this is a tie, too.

Wind Cutter vs Moon Slasher
All three skills are used to immobilize the enemy for a short amount of time so i compare them.
Wind cutter is instantcast, 2 second re-use delay and has a very low chance (13%) to immobilize the enemy for 2 seconds.
Moon slasher has 1 second variable casttime, 1 second aftercastdelay and has a 72% chance to immobilize the enemy for 3 seconds.
Casting/delay-time wise both skills are pretty equal, also the disabling time, although quite short, is quite equal, however Moon Slasher has a way higher chance to immobilize the enemy.
Wind cutter deals forced wind element and deals 525% damage at level 150.
Moon slasher has no forced element and deals at least 600% damage and up to 1500% damage if (which is very likely) the RG gets Overbrand too, which is equal damage to Ignition break.
Moon slasher has a 5.5 times higher success rate to immobilize the enemy than Wind cutter and deals triple the damage of Wind Cutter.
Winner : Royal guard.

A disabling skill (Moon Slaher) of the RG deals the same amount as the main damage skill of a RK (Ignition break).
The main physical damage skill of the RG (Overbrand) deals more damage than the main physical damage skill of RKs (Ignition break).
Of course there is RKs Storm blast, which can deal from ~1200% with 10 int up to 4000% damage with 120 int, which would be as strong as RGs OB with maxed Spear quicken, however compared to Overbrand Storm blast has some huge drawbacks:
-It requires a rune-item that you have to forge pre-battle and you can carry only 20 of them with you so after a short period of time the RK will run out of runes and has to stop battling and forge new runes while the RG can carry on spamming OB.
-The rune-item requires 4 other loot items (1 Light particle, 1 Elders Branch, 1 Tangled Chains, 1 Dragon Canine) while OB doesnt.
-Most physical attacker-RKs wont get 120 int for the 4000% modifier, more like 60 or 70 int total, so the damage modifier would be at about 2500%~2700%, which is far weaker than Overbrands damage without wall-damage and without spearquicken-bonus (3150%).

Pinpoint attack
There is no similar skill in the RK tree so i gonna review about this one alone:
Its a long ranged attack with instantcast and 0.5 second aftercastdelay and at level 5 3 second re-use delay, which is slightly higher than Sonic wave or Cannon Spear.
It has chance to break armor, weapons, shield, cause bleeding or remove spirit spheres depending on the used skillevel.
Now thats all fine and good as a support skill, however what makes this skill so imbalanced is its damage, which
a) never misses, which is pretty unfair for an equipment-breaking skill and
b) according to Frosts RG compilation, ranges from 8416% with 1 agi to 10080% with 100 agi.
Do i even have to comment on this?
Why does an instantcast-longrange skill that breaks equipment do so high damage or why does it even do damage at all? Its supposed to break equipment, not 1-shot the enemy (in which case the equip-break effect is obsolete anyway), i dont see Traumatic blow, Dragon Fear or Phantom Thrust do 2000%.
I'll take a wild guess and hope that the damage formula in Frosts compilation is wrong, at level 5 its probably more like 1500%~2000% total but thats still extremely high for a longranged instantcast equipmentbreaking skill, especially since this skill does not miss (By the way, that would be about 1.5 times stronger than RKs Sonic wave while having same casttime, none, and similar re-use delay and not miss).

Aspd builds
Two hand sword penalty : -15 aspd
Spear penalty : -10 aspd
Pretty unfair in my opinion.
Yes, RKs have a rune skill that allows them to get about the same aspd as Spear quicken paladins but this effect is extremely bugged and very often the aspd-bonus disappears suddenly and again the RK has to use items (1 Light Particle, 1 Elder's Branch, 1 Ogre's tooth) to get the same benefit as the RG, which is not fair as an offensive oriented class to need to consume items to recieve the same offensive benefit as a defensive class (RG).
Winner : Royal Guard.

Two-hand quicken vs Spear quicken
Two-hand quicken und Spear quicken do pretty much the same, however Spear quicken gives also +20 Flee and +30 Crit at level 10.
On top of that Spear quicken improves Overbrands damage even more.
Pretty unfair to the twohand-aspd RKs if you ask me, Two hand quicken should do +20 flee and +30 crit aswell.
Winner : Royal Guard.

Inspiration vs Frenzy/Refresh
Inspiration is like a super version of Frenzy and Refresh.
Frenzy increases aspd slightly more than Twohand quicken (but does not stack with it), increases atk, reduces def and triples hp.
No item/skilluse is allowed, only normal attacks and both def and flee are removed.
Refresh costs alot of items (2 Light Particle, 2 Elder's Branch, 1 Destroyed Armor, 1 Worn-out Scroll) and protects the RK against some status effects (not all status effects, the description is wrong) for 30 seconds with a 5 minute re-use delay.
Inspiration increases all stats, atk and hp.
The attack speed bonus gained by the increased stats stacks with the aspd bonus gained by spear quicken so both classes get about a similar aspd bonus.
I'm not saying that Inspiration is clearly superior compared to Frenzy but in my opinion Inspiration is quite better because it allows the usage of items (resulting in a far longer battle-duration than frenzy) and skills and gives immunity to many more status effects than RKs refresh while not costing any items and having a similar re-use delay as the Refresh-Frenzy-combo.
Maybe Frenzy should be updated to allow item-usage/being able to get healed aswell but still prevent skill usage/rune item usage and Refresh needs to get fixed so it actually provides immunity against all status effects (except stun and frozen).
Winner : Royal guard by a tiny bit until they buff up frenzy.

Conclusion:
I compared 9 aspects.
Winner RG : ~7
Ties : ~2
Winner RK : 0

Small Warlock vs RG:
Ganbantein vs Earth Drive
Why do RGs have a Ganbantein-like skill that has less casttime/delay than Ganbantein itself, while not costing any gems, revealing hidden enemies, having a larger area of effect (7x7) than ganbantein (3x3) and doing damage?
Gravity should remove the Ganbantein effect from Earth drive and let ED only do some damage and reveal hidden enemies.

The concept for the RG class was (only listing points important for this discussion):
-Increased defensive role, skills will be more defensive-oriented.
-More defensive-oriented than Crusaders or Paladins.
-Increased reliance on defensive gears.
-Defensive counterpart of Rune Knight.

RGs are supposed to be more defensive oriented than RKs and they infact are more defensive oriented, even as offensive made build (since they can still get autoguard as offensive build with spear quicken 10 and maybe even defending aura), however while they are more defensive oriented they got, as listed above, skills that are similar to RKs skills yet are far superior so they have both the supremacy in both defensive and offensive skills.

On top of that RGs disabling skills like Moonslasher and Pinpoint attack are either area disabling skills with the same damage as RKs Ignition break or longranged instantkilling.
Disabling skills are there to disable the enemy and should have the downside of doing low damage while damage skills are supposed to do high damage while not causing any status effects.
Why does gravity give RGs disabling skills so huge damage modifier or why did they give RGs disabling skills damage anyway?

Yes RKs have alot more hp but the 10k hp advantage mean nothing if
-the damage of the RK is lower
-the RG has more defensive abilites even when build as offensive skillbuild (they'll still have autoguard and maybe shield reflect or even defending aura)
-the RG can reflect damage back
-even the disabling skills of RG deal more damage than RKs main damage skills
-RKs disbaling skills have a pathetic success rate compared to RGs disabling skills
-RKs strongest single target attack breaks the weapon
-the RK requires items to cast his strongest skills which are less powerful than RGs skills and after a while the RK will run out of items

People are saying an offensive RG loses alot of his defensive power but this is not true.
An offensive RG can get all needed defensive skills as a Paladin, for example here see here for max guard, faith, rapid smiting, defending aura, cavalier mastery and shield reflect 5.
If you want to sacrifice a tiny bit of overbrand damage you can save 19 points from SQ/Spear mastery and put them in shield reflect and get other battle/support/defensive oriented skills.
A RG with Guard, Defending Aura, Shield reflect and Faith is extremely powerful defense-wise while being able to get all neccessary offensive skills (not counting Rapid smiting since they can get it as Pala already) as RG, which are more powerful than RK attack skills while many are also more spamable and having some neat side effects, like breaking equipment.
Such a RG is superior over RK in both defense (guard/reflect/defending aura) and offense because they do more damage than RK with their skills and does not need to consume any special items to do more damage than a Runeknight.
If we let them fight eachother the RKs melee attacks gets either blocked or reflected. If the RK attacks with long range attacks the damage gets reduced by 80%.
Same with party play : why take a RK when a RG is better in defense, offense and supporting?

Originally Posted by teh_hungry_cavalry

Getting back on topic,
@omni, defensive classes should take mobs easier. I never heard of a tank class that is easily killed by a rather small group of foes. I think you should've known that.

But at the same time these ultra-tank classes are supposed to be way inferior in their offensive abilities as tradeoff for their superior tanking abilities.

100% agree to atum,

to those people who are still not convinced, guys common its really obviuos RK is really overshadowed at all.

RK is still broken.

if you watch those woe video, you can see how RK is really pathetic

Then go ahead, mail Gravity and tell them that all RG skills to just deal 1 damage... All of them. A tank's priority is to keep attention to themselves, soak up damage and live. Oh we don't have a skill to force other people to focus fire on us. That's why Gravity gave the spear skills the needed respect because if someone then becomes a threat, he gets attention. That entails that this target needs to get eradicated ASAP. If the tank is less threatening, then he loses his potential as a tank. If we're given a skill that forces other people to target us, then go ahead, a few more shaving to our skills is indeed just but then again, there's no way for us to get attention.

Now that I mentioned that tanks soaking damage. He should be the last one to fall because it is expected of him to soak damage. What better way to soak damage is to dodge most skills and have a good Defense. Keeping that in mind, we have Prestige. Prestige gives us protection to magic attacks and at the same time reduces incoming physical damages. Auto Guard, I dunno why it is underestimated??

About the RKs crying that they should be way powerful than RGs at diving, then you're most likely doing it all wrong. You, are the off tank. Being an off tank, the only time that you dive is when the tank officially initiates the fight. Having less reliance to defensive gear proves it. Your AoE skills, Bowling Bash and the likes are most likely to be used when the tank cannot hold or is in danger because he takes more than what he can usually do(Crowd Control).

If a RG opts to have superior tanking, then he has to put all the necessary skills that'll pump up his tanking capabilities:
1. Dodge
2. Damage reduction
3. Longevity(HP)

Where's the room for firepower?? Given we can set our stats almost equal to one another but still suffers from the ones that specialized on.

Overwhadowed, eh? Care to explain the ratio between RKs and RGs to favor the RKs more than RGs???

calvary/@ a good solution will be the offensive skills of the RG pass to the RK counterparts and the RKs offensive disabling skills pass to RGs so... if you say a RK can do good dmg then you will have no problem of this solution also the RK will keep his offensive role while RG can dish out good dmg but always inferior to RKs.

or at least maintain the same skills but pass the modifier skill to the other class like atum already has compared. (and the disabling part too A_A)
ohh i can see it 2HQ lvl 10 gives 300%-400% more dmg to IB swt ;D

EDIT: i really disapointed on you calvary... you say me i dont have experience on the crusader class, but you dont need offensive to protect the party mates thats a futile excuse for have offensive power or do you forgot sacrifice/devotion skill?
...

EDIT2: the ratio RK> RG can be explained on the time that releases the jobs, the RK was the first 3rd job(and you can imagine how anxious the people was to prove the first step of renewal) the RG was about one of the last ones, that fact affects like shinusagi that he made a RK(his main job is crusader class) then when RGs came ... well he made one dont? also its the most ridicoulus excuse to make RG>RK maybe the assassins PREtrans was a joke-job so low people used it right?
so they make the sinx and make the assassin... well everybody knows the history ro was nearly to become assassin cross online or you forgot that?
i know there are alot n00b pleople out there that only wanna come and build the most imba job and then kill everybody whiout know how play, so thats <<<< are the reasons for ''NOT'' make RG>RK only for the ratio RK>RG.

You are thinking far too extreme with this "email gravity to make all RG skills do 1 damage".

I have never said that RGs should not be able to do any damage but at least their damage potential should be toned down to the level of a RK.
In fact i like battle Paladins, however, as my post above showed, the offensive RG skills are far superior to RK skills and they should be balanced out, which means :

-overbrands damage doing between 1500%~2000% damage total with spear quicken maxed at level 150. This means if a RG wants to be an offensive build and get spear quicken they can do the same damage as a RK while still having the advantage of choosing their element while RKs still need fire element for max damage. I think that would be pretty fair.
-making either Cannon spear do way less damage than Sonic wave or make Sonic wave also a certain ranged area attack (hit all targets 3x3 around the main target or also a focussed arrow-strike areae effect)
-Making hundred spear either ranged or Banishing point short ranged like Hundred spear
-Decrease Moon Slashers damage and increase Wind Cutters effect chance so both are about equal in damage and success rate. They are status/disabling skills, not damage skills.
-Make Pinpoint attack do only ~500% damage total at level 5.
Its a status/equip breaking skill, not a damage skill.
-Give RKs twohand swords the same aspd penalty as RGs spears
-Make THQ also give +20 flee/+30 crit
-Enable the use of hp-potions/getting healed while in frenzy
-Remove weapon breaking from Crush strike

This way RGs can either choose to become super tanks with Guard, Prestige, etc or go the battle way and become as strong as Rune Knights but not significantly stronger (like they currently are, as i showed in my previous post).

Also all their RG status attacks should not deal so much damage, as i said:
Status attacks should inflict status attacks/destroy equipment but not deal alot of damage.
Damage skills should deal alot of damage but hardly inflict any status effects.

Originally Posted by daddy21

100% agree to atum,

to those people who are still not convinced, guys common its really obviuos RK is really overshadowed at all.

RK is still broken.

if you watch those woe video, you can see how RK is really pathetic

In all the videos I watched, most of the rune knights are noobs ... I do not see any combo of dragon breath + storm blast being used by any rune knight
Most people think bad Rk use items as a means of attack, but when they invented demonstration of acid criators, no breeder complained ...
RUNE KNIGHT is the new class that requires str, int, vit, and des to cause massive damage on opponents ...
From what I read not have storm blast reusedelay ... only cast, with higher values des can use up to two in a second and a high int + genetic foods can obtain values greater than 5000% per attack
... 10000% attack per second ... not counting elemental advantage that you can get to use the skill for the dragon breath ... making it more than 20000% per second, for me just Guillotine Fist overcomes this dps
RK is much more offensive, just run behind the runes, the other skills are complements to the runes storm blast to do combos ...
Royal guards needed a lot of offensive skills, paladin had MR and RS, as a way to attack pre renew ... any char in an economy has a reasonably GR, 75% nerf to the damage caused by paladin ... if you can not damage you can not be considered a line of defense because it will simply ignore you ...

If you use two Storm blasts per second you run out of runes after 10 seconds and it takes at least 5~10 seconds to re-forge your runes.
Also using two storm blasts per second means you use up 2 Light Particles, 2 Elder's Branches, 2 Tangled Chains, 2 Dragon Canines per second.
Have fun hunting supplies for one woe or killing one mvp.

GR gets heavily nerfed in renewal while RapidSmiting gets powered up and instead of using MR RGs use Exceeding Break so you cant use GR as arguement of RGs doing low damage anymore.

Storm blast costs an item, and even with 120 int you deal less damage (4000%) than a RG with maxed overbrand (4650%), which does not cost any item and does not require int (which is usually not part of a physical attacking class) at an extremely high value (120+ int).
How is that balanced?

Royal guards needed a lot of offensive skills

Yes, RGs needed alot of offensive skills but they should not be superior to RKs, they should max be on the same level as RK if that means they'd have to give up 90% of their defensive skills.
However currently RGs deal 1.5~1.7 times the damage a RK can do and their status attacks are also dealing very high damage.

Well that's how we can only become truly defensive - making all our offensive skills to tickle even Warlocks with 1 VIT... no even Wizards with 1 VIT at level 65. As most people keep on saying, we have 40% + 65% reflect, We can reduce ranged damage by 80%, blah blah blah... Why tone our offensive skills a bit more when bringing it down to abysmal rates will not make a difference - tickling other classes because we're supposed to just stand and do nothing but soak up damage. Even if our skills get toned down, people will still complain. One wants RS to deal ticklish damage. Another is to tone our reflect at rates that anybody can kill RGs without hurting themselves in the process. Make our skills have long cast times and very long after cast delays. Take note, after cast not reuse delays, so we cannot use any skills. That way, we are forced to take on all defensive skills because our offensive skills will make us more vulnerable than actually helping us.

Well that's how we can only become truly defensive - making all our offensive skills to tickle even Warlocks with 1 VIT... no even Wizards with 1 VIT at level 65. As most people keep on saying, we have 40% + 65% reflect, We can reduce ranged damage by 80%, blah blah blah... Why tone our offensive skills a bit more when bringing it down to abysmal rates will not make a difference - tickling other classes because we're supposed to just stand and do nothing but soak up damage.

I dont really get what you mean with that post.

Do you mean if RGs attack get toned down to the attack power of RK skills they become too weak for battle situations?

Even if our skills get toned down, people will still complain.

Well, people always complain and gravity cant please everyone but i'm pretty sure however if RGs attack power get toned down to the same level as RKs attack power then people would at least be happy that the offensive builds would be equal while giving the RGs who want to become more defensive-oriented the possibility of sacrificing attack power for tanking skills.

Do not say it is balanced, the gravity decided to stronger skills for RG, but in compensation RK left with 2 attack more fully in relation to each other RG ... I would like to have Storm Blast and Crush Strike in RG, not complain about having 100 or more points in Int and Str have a SB powerful, or even spend much money on items to be to make the runes or weapon +9 / valk card
to increase the damage and not be destroyed
ragnarok has always been a game where the guy who is better able to spend with equips, items, and pots
has more advantages than others
the greatest example of unbalance in the game today is
edp => 100k
acid terror, +, bomb => 25 k
dispel -> 1 gem ¬¬
future for players of RK are the items that create rune, because the damage of RK is worthwhile only if they use runes ... that the modifiers are higher atk

I'll be as calm as I can be.

As I explained earlier, a tank is someone who specializes on keeping hate towards him, not to his allies. If we were given a skill to force other people to attack us(better version of Provoke but keeps aggro on the RG so monsters/players will not be able to target other people/aliies), then we probably will not even touch a single point over spear skills. Alas, we don't have such skill. How can we even get the attention we need?? That's when they implemented the spear skills to actually hurt. That way, we become more threatening, forcing people like you to focus fire on us, right? If we cannot maintain that hate, we cannot be effective tanks.

RKs on the other hand are considered as off-tanks/occasional tanks. They should only dive once the tank initiates the fight or be the ones to dive if no tanks are present. You were given crowd control skills to augment the tanks since the tanks cannot actually hold mobs forever. It is not actually your task to hold aggro since you have no skills to augment your longevity in battle while we have access to it.

Bottom-line, these classes are the front-liners that should work side by side. The meat shield RGs are just there to make sure that the ones at the back are protected against nukes coming from other classes. Making a full offensive RG is a mere loner, trying hard to be able to kill everybody and fails on epic proportions.

Nobody said to RG deal "ticklish damage", and you know that.

They only said that the RG skills should be in par with the RK skills, so, if you think this will make the RG do "ticklish damage" than you're assuming that RK do "ticklish damage".

And you know, i miss pre-Trans, when Crusader players really knew their roles... They could stand there and "soak up demage" while using Rendeption/Sacrifice to make the real difference in any scenarios...

Originally Posted by teh_hungry_cavalry

As I explained earlier, a tank is someone who specializes on keeping hate towards him, not to his allies. If we were given a skill to force other people to attack us(better version of Provoke but keeps aggro on the RG so monsters/players will not be able to target other people/aliies), then we probably will not even touch a single point over spear skills. Alas, we don't have such skill. How can we even get the attention we need?? That's when they implemented the spear skills to actually hurt. That way, we become more threatening, forcing people like you to focus fire on us, right? If we cannot maintain that hate, we cannot be effective tanks.

Paladins are extremely important targets pre-renewal because of sacrifice and thus transfering stuff like autoguard, shield reflect, etc to the protected targets and enabling phen-effect in woe aswell as being high-damage dealers with rapid smiting and matyrs reckoning and sucking away sp with gloria domini, there was no need for RGs to become even stronger than RKs in attacking and dealing damage.

And RGs could be threatening even without dealing stronger damage than RKs, if you think that raw damage is the only way to get peoples attention then you dont really have alot of imagination how to annoy your enemy to get their attention.

RKs on the other hand are considered as off-tanks/occasional tanks. They should only dive once the tank initiates the fight or be the ones to dive if no tanks are present. You were given crowd control skills to augment the tanks since the tanks cannot actually hold mobs forever. It is not actually your task to hold aggro since you have no skills to augment your longevity in battle while we have access to it.

So you say RKs are supposed to be replacements for RGs/auxiliary swordsmen that hold off the enemy until RGs arrive and slaughter everyone and RKs are damage-supporting classes while RGs are supposed to be the main damage dealing class while also being able to be the best tanks?
Not only is that rather insulting to the LK/RK class to be considered an auxiliary class but also then please tell me what the point of having Rks in your guild or even ingame if RGs are better in every way?
If RGs are better in every way why would people want RKs in their parties/guilds or would even play a RK?

Bottom-line, these classes are the front-liners that should work side by side. The meat shield RGs are just there to make sure that the ones at the back are protected against nukes coming from other classes.
Making a full offensive RG is a mere loner, trying hard to be able to kill everybody and fails on epic proportions.

You said it: RGs are supposed to be a defensive class that protects other people.
And making a full offensive RG is not a failure, as i posted above:
You can get all the main defensive skills (guard, reflect, defending aura) while getting compared to RK superior damage skills.


And if you mean that RGs would only deal "ticklish" damage to enemies if gravity reduced RGs damage output to RKs damage output then you admit that RKs damage output is "tishlish" aswell and that Rks need a damage boost to compete with RGs because RKs are supposed to have at least the same damage output as RGs, if not even more as compensation for RGs better defensive skills.

RGs are already superior in tanking abilities, there is no way they should be superior damage dealers aswell, thats what the Rks are supposed to be.